[NO PLAYERS] The Kibitzer Klub: PB13 Map & Lurkers

[Mardoc]

@Zed: I agree with the general sentiment. We relax the rules a bit for greens games - but basically the idea is this:

1. We like the current climate of trust that leads people to report thoroughly.
2. It's very easy to spoil a game accidentally. One question that gets someone thinking along lines they'd otherwise ignored, one bit of assumed common knowledge, and you might change a game
3. On top, it's even easier to appear to spoil something, even when you haven't really. Someone's been mulling over a change of plans, but saves posting it until after you post. Or their scout zigs instead of zags, and spots the enemy stack - they would have done that anyway, but how can that be proved?

We used to see posts like 'oh, hey, I didn't mention this before out of fear it would leak, but I built the Mids/invaded Scooter/founded Christianity this turn'. Had people refuse to report at all during wars, too. Don't see those reactions much anymore, and that's mainly because of lurker caution.

All in all - you want to avoid not only doing wrong, but anything that could appear to be wrong after mixing in a hefty dose of paranoia and internet tonedeafness. Because the drama isn't worth it, and the climate of trust is *very* nice. And very fragile, sadly . Losing is hard, but losing in a way that can be blamed on a lurker is maddening.

This is one of the better parts about playing Adventures and Succession Games, honestly - a lot less eggshell walking. No one worried about spoilers when we were playing Sword of the Stars, because there was no opponent listening in.

So why is Mackoti considered the best player in Realms Beyond history?

Because he always wins. Even when he's playing other good players. And it's not usually even close.

[Serdoa]

So why is Mackoti considered the best player in Realms Beyond history?

Because he always wins. Even when he's playing other good players. And it's not usually even close.

I wouldn't agree with that Mardoc. We had games with him playing that he did not win outright and even ones which got stopped but in which he was not in the winning position, the opposite even. That said, I would consider him the best player because he has a natural talent for the micro (as in he doesn't seem to do sandboxes or much microing at all but still gets it right or at least as close that it doesn't matter) and is incredible in his strategic thinking on a global scale.

That said, I can't remember if he ever played against Krill. He played against me in PBEM10 (I lost, he won) and PBEM25 (plako won IIRC, he came second or the other way round) and PBEM47 (game ended early, he was getting in a war or at least stalemate with Seven, I was leading). Also some players have evolved since his first games on RB and game-understanding in general got better for many newcomers, so it might not be as much of a curb-stomp as in his first games on RB. I'd still bet on him in most cases, except if playing against Krill, Seven or plako. (Or me if I have a really, really, really good game like PBEM47 while he has a not so good one, like PBEM47, which is pretty unlikely to ever happen again).

[SevenSpirits]

I wouldn't agree with that Mardoc. We had games with him playing that he did not win outright and even ones which got stopped but in which he was not in the winning position, the opposite even. That said, I would consider him the best player because he has a natural talent for the micro (as in he doesn't seem to do sandboxes or much microing at all but still gets it right or at least as close that it doesn't matter) and is incredible in his strategic thinking on a global scale.

That said, I can't remember if he ever played against Krill. He played against me in PBEM10 (I lost, he won) and PBEM25 (plako won IIRC, he came second or the other way round) and PBEM47 (game ended early, he was getting in a war or at least stalemate with Seven, I was leading). Also some players have evolved since his first games on RB and game-understanding in general got better for many newcomers, so it might not be as much of a curb-stomp as in his first games on RB. I'd still bet on him in most cases, except if playing against Krill, Seven or plako. (Or me if I have a really, really, really good game like PBEM47 while he has a not so good one, like PBEM47, which is pretty unlikely to ever happen again).

Oh man, should I reply to this? Maybe.

Saying mackoti has a natural talent for micro is very funny. It's definitely his weakest area. Not to say he is bad at it, but if you picked a random RB player weighted by how many games they've played in, I expect they'd probably have better micro than mackoti. What he has is incredible strategic understanding of the game and enough experience that perfect micro isn't needed. He has not only an excellent sense of what strategic goals are important to a particular situation, but also has a defensive mindset that means he rarely makes big mistakes like being caught by surprise by an enemy attack.

About PBEM47, I saw no need to say anything about it before, but I disagree you were in the best position when it ended. I counted up everyone's output at the end out of curiosity and by my evaluation, economically, mackoti and I had the best positions with you and novice a bit below and gaspar trailing. You had nice looking demos, but most of your high crop yield was actually just being used to support existing citizens. In net food you were behind. If I had to pick one player's economy, mine would be easily the best: tied for top output and with MoM and FIN to make the future quite rosy. Mackoti second choice and novice third. Positionally of course I was in the really bad spot, stuck between mackoti and you (with your high MFG). If I had to pick a position to win the game it would be mackoti's. I don't mean to say you played bad at all, but I just think that Joao was a subpar leader here. He did get you a lot of pop very quickly, but you couldn't claim much land that wasn't yours, and long term prospects for Joao are only downhill. And being ahead in pop like that is kind of a curse - you get so much better demos with only slightly better output, so other players consider you a bigger threat.

[Rowain]

mackoti is a strong player but talking about a best player is useless as a lot of your results depend heavy on the land you have available and the neighbours.

[Krill]

Someone go pester Gaspar to go and post that tier list he did in his PB16 thread.

I think one of the problems with trying to judge mackoti's skills is also his limited reporting; only people that have played with him have that information, and really that also introduces bias because the game is a product of multiple players skills.

Serdoa, I haven't played against mackoti. Maybe in the future, but novice has already has me booked to partner him in the next game.

[Serdoa]

Saying mackoti has a natural talent for micro is very funny. It's definitely his weakest area. Not to say he is bad at it, but if you picked a random RB player weighted by how many games they've played in, I expect they'd probably have better micro than mackoti. What he has is incredible strategic understanding of the game and enough experience that perfect micro isn't needed. He has not only an excellent sense of what strategic goals are important to a particular situation, but also has a defensive mindset that means he rarely makes big mistakes like being caught by surprise by an enemy attack.

I probably used a bad wording. Yes his micro is not perfect. But it is good enough and as far as I know he isn't investing hours over hours into it. For me that is what I understand under the term "natural talent". It is not trained but what he comes up with "naturally" is something that I reach in my fifth or sixth iteration. I then might do another 10 so that in the end it is better - but I think he has the better feeling for it. At least compared to me. I don't know, hopefully it is now better understandable what I meant.

About PBEM47, I saw no need to say anything about it before, but I disagree you were in the best position when it ended. I counted up everyone's output at the end out of curiosity and by my evaluation, economically, mackoti and I had the best positions with you and novice a bit below and gaspar trailing. You had nice looking demos, but most of your high crop yield was actually just being used to support existing citizens. In net food you were behind. If I had to pick one player's economy, mine would be easily the best: tied for top output and with MoM and FIN to make the future quite rosy. Mackoti second choice and novice third. Positionally of course I was in the really bad spot, stuck between mackoti and you (with your high MFG). If I had to pick a position to win the game it would be mackoti's. I don't mean to say you played bad at all, but I just think that Joao was a subpar leader here. He did get you a lot of pop very quickly, but you couldn't claim much land that wasn't yours, and long term prospects for Joao are only downhill. And being ahead in pop like that is kind of a curse - you get so much better demos with only slightly better output, so other players consider you a bigger threat.

I'd rather not get in a "what-if"-contest about PBEM47. I think we all played good games and I agree that you were overall in a better economic position while I was in a better position in terms of MfG. Who would have been able to make his better position first count is up in the air. My intention was not to brag about how well I played (though I am proud of my performance in that game and I don't think there is any reason not to) but to give an example to underline my point that Mardocs sentence about mackoti winning all his games and that even against other good players it is not even close is maybe a little bit exaggerated.

That said: Stating that I was behind in net food and therefore in a worse position is an interesting idea. I was behind in net food because there is only so much happy to grow into and as I did that earlier than everyone else I obviously didn't have as much growth-potential left till I got more happy. Maybe that was even the reason that I had instead a mfg-lead? Oh my, maybe I even worked mines over food-tiles because it fit my strategy and overall position better?

Honestly, I have no issue stating that mackoti, Krill, plako and you (in that order if you want to know it) are better players than I am. I mean hey, I already did in my last post. Heck, Noble might be right and might be a better player than I am. THH might be a better player with more experience actually. I don't really care. Because no matter how good I am, it won't change my personality. And if that is one of being an ass to others over a game, I'd rather not be as good.

[SevenSpirits]

Are you implying I'm being an ass? Sorry if so. Either way I agree this is not worth discussing.

Just one thing I feel I should clarify: by "economic output" I meant commerce and hammers and food, not just commerce.

[SevenSpirits]

Honestly, I have no issue stating that mackoti, Krill, plako and you (in that order if you want to know it) are better players than I am. I mean hey, I already did in my last post. Heck, Noble might be right and might be a better player than I am. THH might be a better player with more experience actually. I don't really care.

Actually, I think I'm missing an insane amount of context here. Wtf is going on?

[Krill]

I think, and I could be completely wrong here, that Serdoa was disagreeing with Mardoc's point that mackoti wins everything because he is a better player, and that different people have different opinions about the top level of players. Admittedly, I figure that as there has been a recent discussion in a thread neither of us has access to, that there is a lot of context we will not understand because we haven't read it.

[Mardoc]

I think, and I could be completely wrong here, that Serdoa was disagreeing with Mardoc's point that mackoti wins everything.

I probably overstated it, in any event. I don't think Serdoa would disagree that Mack wins most of the time even against strong foes, and that's how we know he's a strong player.

And anyway, luck always matters too.