[NO PLAYERS] The Kibitzer Klub: PB13 Map & Lurkers

[Bobchillingworth]

Bah. Land war doesn't require hundreds of hammers invested in boats, and it actually has a long-term payoff in terms of captured cities. And invading Commodore or Bigger could involve some sea action anyway if they're looking for an excuse to do some coastal raiding, as both parties own islands.

[Ceiliazul]

ScooPin said they and Mackoti are far enough ahead that they are approaching it like a duel (zero sum) game. i think they are underestimating some opponents, but thats why they are focused on Mackoti. I agree they have nothing to gain in attacking Commodore, tho Bigger would be an interesting target.

I wonder if Scooter has picked up on the change to Bigger... and i wonder if it might change their target evaluation if he did.

[BaII]

If Scooter would be attacking either Commodore or Bigger it seems a bit wasteful since he has peace right now currently. Both of them have enough culture that capturing the border cities won't mean anything as they would be culture choked and be forced to razed, thus gainly nothing and losing this peace in where they are trying to catch up to Mackoti by building up their infrastrucutre.

[Zed-F]

I'm more thinking that instead of wondering whether the 'smack Mack' plan might (or should) be derailed by opportunities to hit Commodore or Lewger, it's more apropos to wonder whether said plan might be derailed by an opportunity to pile onto TBS (and make gains) once Dtay launches his own offensive. That should be happening right around the time Scoopin would be ready to launch their sortie against Mackoti, so it probably would not be hard to switch targets.

It might not be easy to decide which is the better course of action -- attempt to put the #1 seed on the back foot, or just let him keep doing his thing and try to out-grow him? So far he's had all the advantages with respect to the latter strategy.

[Mardoc]

Bah. Land war doesn't require hundreds of hammers invested in boats, and it actually has a long-term payoff in terms of captured cities. And invading Commodore or Bigger could involve some sea action anyway if they're looking for an excuse to do some coastal raiding, as both parties own islands.

I think you have FFH reflexes. Land war is harder in BtS for a bunch of reasons. As I discovered and documented here: http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showt...#pid438921

[Ceiliazul]

and also documented right here in pb13, by some big talking badass:

http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid440136

read to post 555. Commodore documented this well, but ScooPin are definitely on the same sheet of music.

[Krill]

Those Commodore posts should go into the civ players bible.

[Bobchillingworth]

Okay, I'm going to stake a lonely, contrarian stance and say that my reaction to his post entitled:

"Protracted Land War Against a Competent Opponent is Never a Good Idea."

(which I did read when he posted it)


Is, "Duh". Obviously you never want protracted war against anyone. Generally you probably don't want a protracted anything relating to Civ, save a Golden Age. And of course you don't want to fight a war, land or otherwise, against an opponent whose "competency" is defined as "can match all of your productive capabilities, tech level and also can counter all your moves". But, as I have argued before in my diatribe on why Aggressive in given an often unfair accounting on RB, nobody plays against Foresight Bot 3,000. Commodore is less advanced, has less land, fewer cities, worse land, and is busy shipping troops overseas to fight WLP. Vikings can build lots of Knights for the land war, and Galleons w/ Zerkers to take the islands. Even Sulla says that the time of Knights is a good era to attack (link has PB11 spoilers). Fuck, at least they could pillage the guy, whose plains villages are going to be a real pain to grow back. I know that may be more of a FFH thing, but pillaging still works in BTS, right?


But all Commodore has to do is flash a single Elephant, and his reputation for mindless conflict is enough to spook Pindicooter into instead considering investing many hundreds of hammers into a naval spite attack on Mack which claims them no land, 20 turns or whatever in the future. I think they are making a poor decision in ruling out of hand an attack on him or China, and I am surprised how many people are jumping to defend them, even though we've seen plenty of examples of successful Medieval-era conflict, where the larger, more advanced power crushes it's middling neighbor.

[Krill]

Bob, anyone that thinks attacking Commodore is a good idea needs their head examined,. and that is coming from someone that has fought Commodore successfully. His cities are worthless because he pushed so much culture (so they have to take all the cities beyond the first captured, just to make the first city viable), his land is marginal anyway, and he has enough pop to liquidate into units that even with knights Commodore with Pikes will just sit there and make gains insanely expensive, on the magnitude of thousands of hammers for a few cities. It's not just about the capability of taking cities, it's about the benefit.

Meanwhile mackoti just sits there and techs into the future.

EDIT: lol@Sullla. That's a somewhat basic explanation of warfare that ignores pretty much everything about why warfare is necessary and possible. Fine for where and why he posted it; that is a greens game. But Commodore already explained that much better.

[SevenSpirits]

But all Commodore has to do is flash a single Elephant, and his reputation for mindless conflict is enough to spook Pindicooter into instead considering investing many hundreds of hammers into a naval spite attack on Mack which claims them no land, 20 turns or whatever in the future.

That is not the situation. What's happening instead of e.g. attacking Commodore, is consolidating their gains from the conquest of Nakor, and investing in a bunch of economic stuff. They are absolutely making the better choice there.

Later on, they are planning to harass Mackoti. They could harass Commodore instead. They certainly couldn't conquer Commodore instead of this - the resources required for the latter would be much greater. Between harassing Mackoti, whom they benefit quite a bit from slowing down and who already considers them a mortal enemy, and harassing Commodore, who is not a big threat and is not hostile, I think it's obvious that harassing Mackoti is better. That said, I do find the plan to harass Mackoti to be somewhat questionable, and probably they will place more than optimal value on it because it's fun. And, maybe circumstances will turn out such that attacking Commodore is a good idea at some point. But you can't just compare the two like that. They are completely different scales of operation.