[SPOILERS] By the Rivers of Babylon, FIN has no effect (on krovice)

[Krill]

yes. will post details in 20 minutes when finished eating.

[Krill]

If the aim is to get away without a granary, there regular whipping is not all that efficient (other than 1 pop whips at low pop sizes). but if we want the capital to throw out all of the workers and settlers, then growing it to size 4/5 and working mines is generally more worth exploring as saving the 60 hammers on the granary can be quite worthwhile. So ideally I think that we would then want to reconsider Pottery as the next tech; happy cap of 4 in second city means that a granary there is even less justifiable IMO.

[Commodore]

If the aim is to get away without a granary, there regular whipping is not all that efficient (other than 1 pop whips at low pop sizes).

This is actually why I think Chm and Imp *are* balanced despite the very mild buffing.

[Krill]

Yeah...get a good capital as CHM and just sit at size 7. No granary needed, micro growth between chops and mine those hills. I think PB5 Crapital was the best example of how to play out such a start (and a size 15 capital with nothing but a granary is more beautiful than the Mona Lisa to me). The issue here is that we have only 3 hills at the capital and the only happiness we can see is that ivory ion the back lines, so sitting at size 4 means making 16 production per turn. That's frankly shit, even if it is not much different to building that granary and whipping. In fact simply settling a city 21 of the wheat for the copper and leaving it at size 4 means it can make 13hpt/1fpt, and that's just about the best location for a quick second city.

[Krill]

Messed about with the sim a bit, a city 8888 of Old Timers on the grass hill is a pretty decent, getting the clam, dry corn and a wet rice. It easily fits any number of potential dot maps as well, but best of all it fits with the early settler because there is no need to road for the trade route: the river provides it. However, it works best with Fishing before Pottery, but get a lot of that commerce back from getting a work boat done to use the clam. It is possible to push forward a tile and settle on the coastal plains hill adjacent to the clam and still use the corn from the turn the city is settled, lose the trade route for 5 turns though until border pops. But that city location is pretty much an ideal front city site against dtay: it claims the wet rice near the gold but it's completely defensive and turns that entire position north into no mans land with the total lack of food. Basically dtay has no reason to invade or settle forward or even feel pressured by just that city.

I'm not going to end turn right now. Having run a bunch of sims trying to fit in a granary I gotta say I don't really like any of them: I have to do crazy stuff with the settler and worker micro to make it work, and even then I have to slave 1 pop into the granary which really makes it less useful in the short term. I think that 3 workers is absolutely possible and works fine if there is extra food to improve down by the copper or to the west, but feels slower than simply settling north for the plains hill or grass hill (and uses up a bunch of chops to catch up, but chops will be there anyway).

I think that settling 88887 on that plains hill is probably the best current location we can see. The only stuff that would make me change my mind is seeing a metal happy near the copper or west. So I think that we should go Fishing next and then onto Pottery.

tl;dr: go with you original plan, go Fishing>Pottery with the warrior chop and chop the forests 9, 88, and 87 of Old Timers to get workers into position to improve the corn and potentially put the road in place/cottage/chop a work boat with 1 forest. Timings would be Fishing eot 31, Pottery eot T40 (sim is off), city 2 settled T38, corn hooked T38, forest 7 (rice adjacent) chopped T42, clam hooked T43 (turn size 2) rice started farming with 1 worker T43 immediately after border pop. Old Timers has 1 worker from T39, possible to build worker from T37 and max overflow for granary at size 2 with slave (not stacking unhappiness) due eot T44 or just get the worker eot T40.

[novice]

OK, that sounds good. I'll play through the sim to see how it feels.

I logged in to take a look, and changed tech to Fishing, but didn't end turn. We have 4 beakers into Pottery - so we saved gold last turn? I think it would have been better to tech something, it will be a long time until that gold is put to use.

[novice]

We have 4 beakers into Pottery - so we saved gold last turn? I think it would have been better to tech something, it will be a long time until that gold is put to use.

Never mind that, we revolted last turn, of course.

[Krill]

I have a new sim will email you. No beakers into anything right now but we do have a bit left over: not enough to affect the next tech but maybe enough to save a turn of the second tech. Definitely the case if Fishing>Pottery.

[novice]

Well we do have the 4 beakers that overflowed from BW into Pottery, those were invested even though we were in anarchy.

I played through the sandbox and I like your suggested site on the plains hill NNNNNW of Old Timers. I like how it satisfies our short term micro requirements while also defining a very sensible border towards dtay.

[Krill]

I did not know that the beakers were still allocated despite anarchy. Shouldn't make any difference though.

I did a bit of worker micro to move one worker onto a grass hill south of the city to road the tile before moving onto the forest to chop and then onto the rice. Fairly obvious stuff but it doesn't matter which worker is moved north...other than the current worker needs to be moved 99/chop and then 7/chop. Just about the only micro that is absolutely necessary to make that work.