[NO PLAYERS] The Kibitzer Klub: PB13 Map & Lurkers

[Dhalphir]

The fact that players do the countdowns and then back out of them is precisely why I think these should be left in the game. They add a little of intrigue, which is the fun part of diplo, without the endless NAPs, massive amounts of email correspondence, and stupid alliances, which are the bad part of diplo.

[Bacchus]

The value of an enforced peace is that it allows players to withdraw in good order and regroup out of a messy situation, which they neither side wants to perpetuate. This is especially relevant for maritime borders, which with cease fires only would become a never-ending tactical nightmare. Air Units only make things force, you have basically no incentive NOT to air strike whatever the opponent has in range, even if these forces might well be on the way to fighting someone else.

But I agree that the fixed 10-turn enforced peace creates nightmares of its own. Which is why I would again be in favour of Standard Grammar Diplo, whilst reducing the coded limit on the peace treaty to 0, or if possible, teaching the game not to automatically slot it peace whenever the end-war resolution includes any transfer. Without SGD people would still just send Cease Fire 5 gold for 5 gold or something, though.

The eternal NAPs thing under the ability to negotiate them is a culture thing, albeit there are also pragmatic reasons for their prevalence. I think under SGD people would treat diplo more like the trade screen diplo and more like actual Great Power diplo, rather than honest interaction between good citizens expecting truthful and honourable conduct from each other. SGD would be much more like trade screen interactions than actual talking.

[Hashoosh]

Is there no way to seperate the benefit (unmolested troop withdrawl) from the NAP aspect? I guess 0 turn peace treaties would lead to a lot more conclusive wars, given the way higher opportunity cost of backing out.

[Ceiliazul]

how about 10 turns minimum *war* before a peace treaty can be proposed? like the ai "Refuse To Talk" basically, which effectively prevents war-peace shenanigans

[Hashoosh]

Making the NAP peace treaties part of don't be a jerk, or actually coding it in?

Edit: That still leaves the bad part of 10 turn peace treaties, because it provides the cover of a hard peace

[Twinkletoes89]

Ouch to scooter for that major mistake at Gators - losing a city, 4 airships and two great generals is going to be a bit of a blow to his morale - just as it might have been a little on track after surviving the assault on the capital

[pindicator]

Sounds like scooter isn't spending a lot of time on the turns. I can't imagine him missing something like that unless he was busy and rushing through.

[Ceiliazul]

Sounds like scooter isn't spending a lot of time on the turns. I can't imagine him missing something like that unless he was busy and rushing through.

That was my thought too. Scooter isn't in this to win it anymore... which is crazy because Lewwyn has NOTHING LEFT!

[Dhalphir]

Trying to code out war/peace declarations is silly, just ban them if we don't want them. It's not like somebody can hide that they're doing it.

[Qgqqqqq]

I would be okay with making enforced peace 1 turn long, I think they've earned that. Personally I dislike the whole coded message aspect of our games lately, and would prefer no use of the diplo screen to pseudo-diplomacy, but it appears I'm in the minority here.