[NO PLAYERS] The Kibitzer Klub: PB13 Map & Lurkers

[pindicator]

I love Mackoti's decision to invade Azza. When he was bemoaning his lack of options earlier I was thinking then why he didn't consider Azza. My guess is he thought scooter would stop him. But now that Lewwyn has put a dent in how scooter's perceived by his neighbors... If anything that is probably the biggest accomplishment in this war.

Granted, I was publicly ready to eat crow after Lewwyn failed to raze Trailblazers, but losing that second city seems to make scooter look vulnerable again.

[Krill]

mackoti turning up with DD will basically lead to him taking over the entire continent minus Commodore...

[Ceiliazul]

as soon as mack demoralizes Plako with a reasonable sirian fleet, its all over. i still think Vikings can win, but Commodores post from 2 months ago nailed it:

Mackoti or Pindicooter come first. Pindicooter have all the material advantages. Mackoti is far less fragile emotionally. War is a stoneplated bitch. I'm betting Mack.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

buy some ships from Mackoti? how would you do that?

I suppose one way to do it would be for Commodore to take whatever naval units he has that he wants upgraded into state of the art naval material and gift them to mackoti, along with the exact corresponding amount of gold. Then in a secondary diplo message he could include an extra sum for mack's profit. Probably, though, mack would do it "at cost" just to threaten scooter from another direction.

[Zed-F]

as soon as mack demoralizes Plako with a reasonable sirian fleet, its all over. i still think Vikings can win, but Commodores post from 2 months ago nailed it:

Mackoti or Pindicooter come first. Pindicooter have all the material advantages. Mackoti is far less fragile emotionally. War is a stoneplated bitch. I'm betting Mack.

Not to mention that Mack appears to have a lot more time available to play than scooter. RL could potentially cost scooter the game at this point.

[Krill]

Becasue of freaking tech bonus, i decided to research artilery until 1 turn to complete and i will research combustion till there as well so if scooter wants the tech bonus , to let me have DD with 5-6 turns earlier if not more.

Good, making a decisions to delay the techs is a good method of limiting the effect. Doesn't work amazing well if you are really far ahead, or if the other player can run binary and save a lot of gold.

Again i say this bonus is destroying the game gets to many people back in game, and makes everithing about the land, you cant get a tech adavantage cause you cost alot , and when you get it the one you want atack gets a 30-40% discount. Dont know what should be done but is just not good.

mack has already admitted that he screwed up the attack on FinHarry earlier on, and this is part of the consequence of that. He choose a tile setup that is based around getting early hammers and sacrificing late game tech speed and couldn't make it work: don't bitch and moan about making a mistake and blaming it on something else. That's the last thing I would have expected from mack.

I know i dont have loads of fun casue of that , i think i will not play again if this masiv unfairnes keps going(becasue in 99% of my games i am tech leader and that nets me the win, and with this mod i realy get penalized).I sacrifice alot for science , early to have an adavantage and i get penalized and i feel is not right.

mack, you are being penalized because you've actually made the decision to rush up the tech tree. If that bonus wasn't there, everyone would end up doing the same thing and rather than interacting with each other, would just focus on that tech pace and tech race. It's not unfair, you just haven't adapted to it. Simply increasing tech costs doesn't change this either, it just means it takes longer to reach the relevant techs. In fact if it means someone crushes their own tech pace for whatever reason, it means that you may have more turns to break them up with stronger units unless they can recover their economy...which is rarely simple to do unless you capture size 12 intact cities from people.

At some poit for example comodore had like 45 k beakers less, but he strat researching chemistry and all that line with 60% mutipliers so he gets all those in few turns .Same plako right now he gets 30% in near everithing he research... which is alot.

Commodore researches faster because of having more cottages than you, and they are all Towns, plus FIN, plus IMP Portugal! FFS, if he wasn't the fastest researcher at this stage of the game something would be wrong. Plako has been sitting there with a bunch of islands you could have done something about but you ignored him. Be decisive, like you are with azza . Though I suppose noting that Plako is the only person that has beaten mack in a fair fight so there is that to consider.

[Gaspar]

The thing is Krill, even if everything you just said is right, what mackoti just did was play Civ4 exceptionally well. This known tech bonus game just turns this into something else. Bottom line is nobody who isn't mackoti, scooter or plako should be in the game at this point and their difficulty to conquer should be down to the degree of their tenaciousness and tactics, not their ability to realize that the mod indicates you should basically never research anything until after everyone else you know has grabbed it if at all possible. What kind of sense does that make?

[Krill]

No one is in the game that isn't mackoti or Plako. Plako because he has like 30% more cities than anyone else and mackoti because he has 4 times more MFG than anyone else and a tech lead. mackoti will simply crush through scooter, I don't know what scooter is thinking but mack is like 12 turns from tanks if he pushes, and about half that from DD. Arty will destroy inf, in combination with cav. Plako just has to sit there and try to rebuild and hope he has enough turns to do it in. The KTB is only going to force the issue now, which is the entire point: if gives a time frame that an attack can occur in at a tech advantage, instead of simply building a huge tech lead and sitting on it.

[pindicator]

I know I'm not playing any more, but this whole tech cost complaining bit sounds just as bad as when a team in basketball can only complain about the officiating when they lose.  Yes, it has an impact, but if that's why you think you lost then you're missing the point altogether.  Besides, it's out of your control and it's already been acknolwedged as something that will be changed in future versions.  Focus on what you can control.

People seem to forget that being first to a tech is still a pretty hefty advantage.  And mackoti with his "i'll research 90% of as many techs as possible until I need one" is still too focused on what his opponents are getting and not focused enough on what he can do.  Much

I mean, he's got 4-5 times the production of the second place team.  Who the hell cares about tech when you can produce 4-5 times as many units?  Get destroyers and transports and just zerg someone.  If there's anything that will kill him it will be his inactvity, allowing other civs to tech to Assembly Line and being able to lay down their own factories to catch up the MFG gap.

Attacking Azza is a start at least.  But I get the feeling that mack is using all his extra production to try and build wealth and research instead of units.  Which is the exact opposite of leveraging an advantage.  It's like when he was in a naval war against scooter and I earlier, and despite having more production and drydocks for better promoted units, he used those promotions to get Nav-1 on all his ships to try and make up the gap of movement instead of grabbing C2 and creating a mismatch he could take advantage of.

[pindicator]

No one is in the game that isn't mackoti or Plako. Plako because he has like 30% more cities than anyone else and mackoti because he has 4 times more MFG than anyone else and a tech lead. mackoti will simply crush through scooter, I don't know what scooter is thinking but mack is like 12 turns from tanks if he pushes, and about half that from DD. Arty will destroy inf, in combination with cav. Plako just has to sit there and try to rebuild and hope he has enough turns to do it in. The KTB is only going to force the issue now, which is the entire point: if gives a time frame that an attack can occur in at a tech advantage, instead of simply building a huge tech lead and sitting on it.

Exactly this. My guess is people are just upset they can't leisurely roflstomp the competition when they get a large enough tech lead. They still have to work for it