[Spoilers PB23] Old Harry's attempt at civilizing AdrienIer

[Krill]

Cos I'm a nice guy...here are the tech costs for Monarch/Standard, along with a link to the document that Seven put together to calculate tech costs (in base BtS and ToW, it works for RtR up until the Renassaince era).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?...sp=sharing

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Are there any traits you are set on? Are you wanting exp for sure? Basically exp and imp are the important ones to say yes or no to for the sim. I'll have a play around tomorrow, but I think old Harry is right, wb - slaved worker seems rather strong. Might even get the worker out too fast!

[Old Harry]

I think these are the civs that are plausible with this start. first off the fishing civs (which allow wb first):

Carthage (Numidian Cavalry/Cothon) Fishing Mining
England (Redcoat/Stock Exchange) Fishing Mining
Portugal (Carrack/Feitoria) Fishing Mining
Rome (Praetorian/Forum) Fishing Mining
Vikings (Beserker/Trading Post) Fishing Hunting
Greece (Phalanx/Odeon) Fishing Hunting

Ethiopia (Oromo Warrior/Stele) Hunting Mining
Germany (Panzer/Assembly Plant) Hunting Mining
Russia (Cossack/Research Institute) Hunting Mining

Which ones do you like?

As there are a limited number of civs with decent start techs for us it might be a good idea to pick civ first, then when the snake comes back to us we'll know how many IND leaders are in the game and I'm sure one or two EXP leaders will still be available. Then again, unless everyone has a water start it's likely that most of these civs will still be available, so if you've got a strong preference for a leader we could go leader-first.

[Old Harry]

Flooded waterways maps have about 175 land tiles per civ. They look like these and give a few islands and very rarely a continent or two:


Inland waterways have about 220 tiles per civ. They have maybe one or two islands per map and no continents.


I'd guess our good mapmakers will have given each civ one or two islands for their ICTRs. From these example maps I'd conclude that trade won't be *that* strong in this game, and that skipping Alphabet for OBs will be fine. If we've got the flooded waterway version I think Carthage will be strong just for the C1 Horse Archer, since we're going to butt heads with a neighbour at about that tech level...

[Old Harry]

Thanks for the info Krill, I've always said you're a nice guy...

I set up a sandbox for Bismark of Carthage (it's editable if we go for someone else).

Going worker first and hunting first or starting with a hunting civ leaves the worker twiddling his thumbs for up to ten turns waiting for BW.

Going WB & BW first, the tech won't come in until t14, so I did a slightly tortuous WB-Warrior-Worker-Warrior-Worker-Settler that whips both workers and gets the second city t31. I think we need to try versions without a revolt and with just one worker before the settler.

See what you can do...

[AdrienIer]

You forgot that Germany has a new UU and UB, but to be fair I'd rather take Carthage Rome or Vikings (because flanking 1 for mounted units makes the trading post ok now). Rome is currently my first choice. Unfortunately I can't do sims till sunday, still exp and something strong is probably the way to go (Bismark, Pacal, Shaka, Mansa). Pacal is nerfed with the river heavy start, Bismark's worth changes with the number of ind leaders overall.

[Old Harry]

You forgot that Germany has a new UU and UB, but to be fair I'd rather take Carthage Rome or Vikings (because flanking 1 for mounted units makes the trading post ok now). Rome is currently my first choice. Unfortunately I can't do sims till sunday, still exp and something strong is probably the way to go (Bismark, Pacal, Shaka, Mansa). Pacal is nerfed with the river heavy start, Bismark's worth changes with the number of ind leaders overall.

Actually I copy/pasted Panzer while thinking Kanone . Kanone will be delayed a little due to increased tech costs, so isn't as good as normal.

- I like Carthage a lot - NC with combat 1 is very flexible, and even without continents the Cothon is something you'll build in every coastal city
- England would be good with a FIN leader for the cheap banks, Redcoats also have a much longer lifespan with the tech cost changes
- Rome is interesting but dangerous (Praetorians with city attack? You probably don't want to be doing that with 1-movers ) Forum sounds good though - I haven't yet run a good great person strategy, and this could make things easier...
- Vikings are still okay (Amphibious is a great promotion to get for free, although perhaps not on this map, and Flanking 1 for all units from that city is interesting...)

And the rest don't impress.

[AdrienIer]

But aggressive praets ! It's a cool toy really. England would mean late bonuses, not too sure about that. Carthage is nice too. So should we go civ first and leader last ?

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Your conversation is trending! Well done!

I'll throw out some thoughts -

England whilst nice is slightly nerfed by the drafting changes. Although it depends on how much you like to draft. Also I assume you want to avoid fin to try out the different traits?

I love the new Rome. Not gonna chuck anything out there.

Carthage seems nice I agree, with the reduced cost cothons to base cost. But they do come rather late. The ha unit could power through things though.

Vikings now push for a mounted attack. Free flanking 1 promo curs would be nice.

I have played with the opening save and do you think you need exp? It saves a turn for the workboat, then allows a worker slave 2 turns earlier. If going a fishing/mining civ then slaving the worker allows you to have one chop and 1 wasted turn before hunting for the pasture. What I am trying to say is unless you want lots of chops which can be useful, (it would be 2 chops before being able to pasture) tech is more right than hammers for the worker.

Are there any hunting/mining civs, for a worker first pasture then chop workboat play? Expansive would be more useful there.

Ie Khmer Russia Germany or eithiopia? Expansive Khmer for the barays could be powerful. The Russian ub with the free scientist is nice, and Cossacks are epic if you reach them.

What I am saying is pick a civ you will enjoy, and a better early trait might be imp or pro over exp given the workers having less to do that fast.

[Old Harry]

We're trending? Where?

Good spot with Khmer - that's a hunting/mining civ we could work with...

I had a similar frustration with sandboxing EXP - it gets five hammers into the workboat so misses out on a double EXP bonus by one. I think I got the worker a turn earlier by building the warrior so that it overflows four hammers into the worker, but yeah, that just led to two wasted turns waiting for hunting... I'd be happier with IMP (and perhaps even PRO or CHA ).

But the turnplayer gets to make the big decision - I think we're agreed that civ first is better for us, I think workboat first is probably going to work out best, but I haven't had time to sandbox as Khmer so that's just a gut feel. So over to you AI...