[SPOILERS] By the Rivers of Babylon, FIN has no effect (on krovice)

[Krill]

OK, so a turn report for the GA. This is likely to be the only turn report that I’m going to write for the GA.




We got an event, we sucked up +1 unhappy for 2 free religion spreads, one of which went into Eggcorn so it was worth it; the tech option was for Monotheism which we don’t need and we have about 6 spare happy in Cf.





BGN has a settler in someone elses culture...why? Misclick?

OK, now for the more interesting yet hige wall of text. Tech choices.

After we finish Railroad this turn (@90%), we will have something like 4500 gold remaining, with costs of about 1000gpt. So we will have basically started research perfectly to finish Combustion with no remaining gold except for the gold that we have earned through being usurious bastards. That’s something to be pleased with I suppose.





OT are the current tech leaders. It’s not even that close in absolute terms but relatively due to tech cost inflation I’d put them at no more than 5 turns ahead of BGN, and with BGN’s huge MFG lead he could close that gap IMO.

They are up a bunch of irrelevant techs to us like Democracy, Liberalism and Communism, that is unless we need to generate EP in which case the buildings those tech provide are crucial. But I’m going to ignore them because compared to the other techs, they don’t matter.

OT are up Electricity (4 turns at max), AL (3 turns at max), Biology (3 turns at max) Music+MT (1 turn at max being optimistic) and Combustion (3 turns max), so I’d say they are 27-30 turns ahead of us and accelerating away. Tech is slightly different this game than normal because I can’t see any uranium, so the techs like Fission that enable nukes are only relevant for SS and not for the buildup. Even though nukes are changed.

I’ve tried to figure out how quickly OT could win this via SS, but I just can’t figure out their tech rate.

dtay is up Music and AL, but down Railroad, and about half of Artillery. We have the rest of our third GA and he has used his. I think we are actually ahead of him in tech if you ignore the lib>Communism stuff. Not that this means anything, if we fight we both die to OT and BGN respectively.




Here you see a bunch more people like William, Joey and TBS with Assembly Line.

TBS is up Bio, Music+MT, and Combustion and fielding DD, and finishes Electricity this turn like we finish RR. So he is something like 20 turns ahead of us. But he’s not really a threat, he is running the clock to CV and as such is OT and BGNs problem. I imagine he wants Flight and Industrialism for tanks and fighters and BB to defend with then stopping research? But does he want Radio for Eiffel and free Broadcast Towers, does the extra 50% culture outweigh the delay in the lisder, what about bombers? As far as I care, he basically is giving us 8% more tech.

In terms of culture victory, I think that TBS should be able to generate a minim of 500 culture per tunr in his worst city, and potentially 1000 cpt in his best. So much depends on the number of artists he has to bomb with, but he could win this game 25 turns from turning the slider on if he has all of the Cathedrals built. I expect that he could win this game by T260, perhaps as early as T255

BGN has RR, Combustion, Electricity, AL, Music+MT, he is essentially in the same position as TBS techwise but he has different aims.

My belief is that BGN should research Industrialism>Flight>Radio>whatever. Build tanks and BB and move them out. Then build fighters and carriers, rebase and reposition. Then build Bombers and rebase to cities. Then murder everyone. But he has to eat Ruff and wetbandit first which he should already have done by now so I don’t believe he is going to do this.

On the one hand, BGN presents an absolute huge threat to everyone in this game, but frankly I don’t think he can win Domination before culture victory occurs anymore, as he lost his easy route to get onto Plakos continent and stop OT’s easy expansion through Pin and Dreylin.

Right now, my greatest concern is that BGN gives up on trying to win the game and instead throws everything at us. I don’t think we can survive past T245 if he wants us out of the gmae but then he would definitely lose IMO.

What we need to defend against a BGN strike (which I think he needs to do to reach Domination) is a combination of air power, city defenders and SoD to destroy anything that lands normally.

The best way for us to do that is arguably not Flight, because he can just build more fighters than we can, but to build SAM infantry from Rocketry. They come with 75% interception, and with 5XP can get to over 100% interception chance. Air units are limited in numbers that you can put in a city, but SAM units aren't. Cost more though but also act as city defenders and gain fortification bonus.

City defenders should be inf plus marines, we can draft inf to bolster numbers. And stack destroyers are straightforward: tanks and artillery. Tanks are just going to be the best we can get, but blitz helps enormously in the conflict of numbers if we have collateral.

So what I’m saying is, we still need more tech. Electricity, AL, Industrialism take us 20 turns at least. Rocketry would take a further 6-7 turns and that’s not even including Combustion research. This is partly why I’m interested in saving gold after the GA is finished: except for AL which is a pretty cheap tech now, this empire needs to save gold for about 10 turns to get through Electricity and Industrialism at 100%.

[Krill]

Expansion areas:




Site 1, settler comes from OT. Has one unique grassland and one unique plains tile. I think that it needs to build wealth or a bank from T0 and grow to size 3 with Biology, working one farm 1 workshop and 1 merchant. No lighthouse or granary needed. Harbour probably detrimental to trade route allocation.





Site 2 has 3 unique plains tiles and a unique lake, but could also take a few plains tiles from FtM that it may not be able to use. Need to decide on that later, but with Bio next I’d rather grow FtM to use every possible cottage tile (why not in a game that doesn’t matter). Could also take the wheat from TtL because extra food from other farms would cover it.

Other option is to move the city one tile east and take a few coastal tiles from SS and with a small rejig of hte tiles could draft from both of them, but the cost is that a coastal city is putting fewer hammers into boats. Whatever happens, site 2 needs a granary and maybe a light house, definitely a light house if intending on a 10 turn draft cycle.





Site 3 is settled. It can definitely do a ten turn draft cycle. Needs a granary and lighthouse then can build the barracks afterwards (same with any draft city). It has two unique grassland and 4 unique coast. It can also take the sheep from WL because WL has enough food without it, once the granary is completed. I’ve messed about a bit with FP but it is also possible to take the deer or rice from FP with Bio, think it was the deer. Would have to grow FP one tile larger then draft it, or take the wine from RC for FP.

I think this is the city that I should have planted 25 turns ago. Can’t really justify not doing it, that was definitely a mistake.





Site 7 works 2 coast tiles and builds wealth, although a lighthouse is understandable. Settler froms from CL.

Site 6 works merchant at size 1. Settler comes from PE.

Site 5 builds a lighthouse with a tundra hill mine than works 3 coast tile and a merchant. Granary uneeded IMO. Settler comes from WA

Site 4 I’m a little iffy about. Also would use the last settler so takes longer, unallocated from where. Would just work a merchant.

Cold Slaw can work all the coastal tiles available plus the crab to draft.





Site 8 is the oil resource, settler comes from PM on the island. Just work the lake and a merchant, then build wealth. lighthouse is straight loss maker.

Site 9 is settled. Stealing the fish, granary is chopped in time. Working 3 tundra farms with Bio, 2 tundra hill and 1 ice hill windmill. It can also take the marble and fish and keep up 10 turns drafts. Does not need a lighthouse as could only work the fish. Can site at size 7 with one merchant.

Point on Dominaria: It doesn’t need the fish. It can use hte fish for some drafts but it can sit at size 11 working 10 coastal tiles and a specialist, or use the fish to enable some drafts. I think the drafts are worthwhile and the micro doesn’t have to be perfect between AA and Dom to share the fish and marble.

Mute Point could draft but not that quickly. Probably better to just build Wealth after lib and a bank.




Site 10, just needs to work a merchant, or potentially grow to size 2 and steal the furs from MP but that’s slightly inefficient. Not that bad though, MP only has an observatory.

Time Waist is viable draft city but needs all the coastal tiles.

Out of the new cities, I believe that we should generate about 200 commerce per turn from trade routes and hte city tile, add in the extra commerce tiles and gold from the specialists and I can see that going over 250. Add in the other growth in those gulags and that’s probably a total output of 500 base commerce from the ice cities and then the tundra cities that have already been built include Beyond Approach, Whale Away, Chill Lakes, Marsh Pit, Baited Breath and Holiday Sauce...that’s like a quarter of our pop?

I need to respect tundra and ice more.

[Krill]

Also, Airship Two is blocking a one tile island from being settled.

Does that give us permission to capture it?

[Krill]

Going to take a few hours until I post the next segment, it'll be the cities, but I need to rest my eyes for a bit. My "fixed" glasses are giving me a headache.

[BRickAstley]

Also, Airship Two is blocking a one tile island from being settled.

Does that give us permission to capture it?

Lurkers are overrated anyways.

[Krill]

First 8 cities:




One turning a settler for site one after the market, which you can just see in this picture. If we ever intend to industrialise, we need to build a grocer in every city as a factory gives +7 unhealthiness and a coal plant +2 unhealthiness. We can cover 8 with the aqueduct, gargen and grocer. OT makes 36 hpt base after railroads and without a GA; a factory hence only gives +9hpt but power gives +18hpt.

Long story short, coal plants are cheaper than factories and provide minimal additional unhealthiness and give a greater production bonus. As a rule of thumb, you should never build a factory that you do not intend to provide power to from a powerplant or 3GD. We don’t have coal, but it is currently provided to us for free by OT. So coal plants are a risky proposition, but hydro plants are viable in certain cities, OT being one of them yet require Plastics which is like 30 turns away.

I do not have any plans to get Assembly Line in the immediate future but that could theoretically change as it is only a 3 turn tech at maximum research due to so many people having it. Biology for additional food to grow and then draft Inf from a later AL research date is probably more easily utilised because the food requires no addiitonal resources to access but factories would have to be built.

I think is perhaps best grabbing the grocer anyway then continue to stock up on artillery, with airships whenever we need more. If we go Biology next then that may open up a regular 20 turn inf draft, 10 turn inf draft if we windmill the hills but that probably isn’t worth it...





Just finish the customs house then straight onto DD. We’re going to need tons of DD to deal with the battleships that BGN could through at us, but the anti air defence from DD is relevant for us as BGN can get flight and hence fighters and bombers. DS makes 40 base hpt (with rails) if a scientist is swapped for an engineer so it’s fairly easy to visualise the 2 DD per 5 turn cycle with the current +100% production modifier (25% forge, 25% PS, 50% drydock).

A factory would only increase this by 10hpt to 2 turn DD but requires about 5 turns spent on building the aqueduct and grocer. Wouldn’t breakeven or be slightly ahead until, what, 20 turns after the buildings were all finished, excluding the factory build time? It’s not really worth it, especially give that hte unhealthiness from the coal plant can’t be negated easily (need hospital, or recycling plant), and a hydro plant can’t be built here. So going to just leave DS to build boats now.





Settler for site 2. Nothing to really do but build the settlers needed for the expansion sites, or units. aAs most of hte settlers are already built. Biology is enough to grow 1 pop size then draft down two for an infantry, giving away the wheat to site 2 as mentionned earlier. I think that ius preferable, although could draft more than 1 inf from here. I think it is more important to bootstrap up growth in site 2 then return the wheat to TtL and probably change two farms to a workshop and watermill.

I think that TtL is worth building a factory in, because of the low pop size it can more easily suck up the health hit, it can build a hydro plant rather than a coal plant if we lose coal so there is some safety present. It would only need to build a garden and grocer. However, with the potential need for units sooner rather than later, I also think that is not likely to happen unless I see BGN make a move elsewhere. More likely just keep on building artillery and airships.





WH just sits on boats, same issues as with DS in that it can’t build a hydroplant and health is too large an issue, but it has lower hpt than DS so is an even worse proposition for industry.





I feel that this GA is ever so slightly wasted in not building WP in RC with the extra production, and the same with the lack of a factory. But if the latter ever changes, then the health from teh grocer is going to be needed so it ain’t a complete waste. Just need to put RC back onto units I suppose. RC can just about swap between one turning inf and tanks if we workshoped the watermill and the grass town.but I think that’s not going to be needed. I will admit there is a certain level of surrealism that we can still build Xbows on T222.

novice, do you want me ot add the two GG to RC now, or would you rather that we save them, or add them to PE? I don’t particularly care, but running around with about 5 medic 3 units in a war would be somewhat infuriating if we were to be invaded. If they were to be added to RC then it would start producing 3 promo units.





With Bio FP will make on odd food surplus, but if it is drafted just prior to growth to size 15, it could give up the deer and be food neutral and still working all of hte cottages. I’m fine with FP building a grocer afterwards for hte extra gold income, or units. Either makes sense depending on in game situations.





Oh, FR, what did we do to you...same issue as with FP, with Bio make odd food surplus, so really want to change the tile layout. I’d consider taking the workshops from Shore Suppy in exchange for a coastal tile; both are going to be making boats and FR has a better hammer multiplier due to hte forge, so SS could then go onto also drafting inf. That would lead to the production output of FR staying at GA levels., with rr on the mines.

Making 36 hpt, the case for a factory is similar to that at OT, except that FR has no fallback if we lose coal but the lower pop level and the harbour would require fewer health buildings. It also has the pressure of potentially having to build DD for the next 30 turns. Would only need the garden and grocer for hte health again, and the commerce output helps to justify the grocer. I’ll put it in the maybe pile.





Yeah, we ain’t building a factory here, too large, but it would be possible to afford it if we built the garden, aqueduct and then drafted away both specialists. We’d basically be giving up 20bpt for, what, 16 hpt after investing over11 turns worth of production? Rather just build airships or artillery and eventually gain another 10bpt from the extra scientist after Bio.

[Krill]

Second bunch of cities:




KM is just finishing growth to size 13 then is swapping onto the two workshops with the new pop and giving up a farm to stagnate for the rest of the GA. I’m mentionned before that there just aren’t enough land tiles in area of the map for all of hte cities that we’bve crammed in. To me that’s a reminder of the problems that the other players have in all of their empire, not just in one small part of it.

With Biology it could suck up two more mines; I can’t really state what I want to happen just yet because of the tile permutations with the other cities. If you want to have a really fun challenge, try to figure out how to keep KM, GE, and TS all with 10 turn draft cycles and mixmise naval production in all the cities (they all have +100% production of neval units to make the challenge slightly easier).

The other option is maxing it out at size 16-17, stagnating KM but using TS and GE as draft pumps. That cost something like an additional 102 food to manage though. It would only make 32hpt base, and is a frontline coastal city so industrializing at that point would take ages, plus would need a grocer, garden and aqueduct so it’s rather unlikely. OTOH, biology farms and farming over hte ivory and other tiles may speed that a bit further...





Cf has some easy micro and macro to figure out. It is using all unique tiles and benefits not one iota from Bio. With grocer and aqueduct it can easily afford the unhealthiness from industrizing. But Cf only makes 42hpt base, it’s on it’s own island, it has frankly no real defense and is easy for BGN to raze with marines.

So it is building units and nothing else now.





JD is not going to be changed that much from Bio, +2fpt means I’ll likely let it gro onto the last few coastal tiles, but it’s also a good city to industrialize with 48 base hpt and difficult to boat without battleships stacks acting as collateral battering rams to reach it. Again, grocer is all that’s needed, but it’s busy with boats. I also want a bank here, so there are competing decisions to be made.

If BGN ignores me I suppose I may slot in the factory as this is another city that has the hydroplant as backup. Bank might just be crammed in right as Bio finishes and the gold runs out if it’s possible; it’s about a 1.5 turn build in the GA. I think after growing to size 17 it might need the garden as well though, but that’s cheap enough...to the extent that it priobably needs building before the factory because of just how cheap it is…





The shitty FP city because we couldn’t conquer anywhere foreign. Bio means growing to size 18 at 10fpt with a bunch of tile swaps, picking up 2 tiles from MP and that unused windmill which will get mined. 64 base hpt demaneds a factory as it is not coastal, and the grocer, garden and aqueduct to afford it. I suppose that means building the grocer after the settler. 144hpt after modifiers is solid IMO, it’s 1 turn inf.





GE is crammed in, and has the unique point of making me consider razing someone elses city to open up tiles for one of mine. OTOH, BGN would just pillage the workshop so it’s not worth it. A gems popped here a few turns ago when novice played the turn. I think that helps the long term hammer setup a bit, it can sit at 16 or 20 base hpt depending on if it takes back a workshop from KM. I changed the setup for this turn after taking the screenshot, the harbour completes this turn. That takes care of the health issue.

No factory for this city, hammers are too low and it’s literally the city on the edge of the epire gaurding us from the hordes of cossacks. Boats, boats, more boats and emergency drafts. There’s an easy 6 drafts in this city if needed. In fact I think after the harbour it’s not more infrastrucutre until maybe an airport.





Saving population for inf drafts now. Even with saving gold and Bio next, AL shouldn’t take more than 10 turns to arrive from here on out. Are 5 rifles really worth it? Nope. There are enough tiles for 4 pop to sit on, but I think the hills can be windmilled for a minor food loss but a plains tile could be take from SS and farmed. Can also give the fish away to KM to aid growth there as needed.





Mixed odds GP, settler for site 5, then DD. Maybe fit in that customhouse, but will be giving up a bunch of tiles to other cities that it doesn’t need and can just sit on the specialists now. At 20hpt and no health leeway, factory is out of the question until recycling centres from Ecology.





Next turn grow onto a coastal tile, and can then mine the windmill which can also be rr’ed. The farm needs to stay in place until KM has finished with the farm SE of TS. It’s probably going to get drafted down to size 12 to use tiles other cities can’t reach as KM grows to size 17 to take up everything else, because it could easily manage a 10 turn draft cycle between 12 and 14. KM can’t really draft at any pop size. That would suggest minimal building investment here and stagnating KM.





Finish the library then back to DD. Nothing amazing to say here, just building boats with 22 base hpt and no health worries: no real point in building a factory although minimal health concerns make it cheaper because only need a garden.





HS is not going to be doing unit building, so probably just going to finish the university in time for research to stop, and then get the market and grocer down. Because why not?

[Ceiliazul]

Also, Airship Two is blocking a one tile island from being settled.

Does that give us permission to capture it?

I very much want to see someone capture that city!

[Krill]

It's trivial to kill the city. It's also trivial to defend it.

I'm just not going to say how.

I'll likely do the rest of the cities tomorrow when I fix my glasses again. I also hope to give another explanation about how to view end game races. But the tl;Dr is BGN screwed up.

[Ceiliazul]

Defend: put a unit on each square elegible for commando landing... but aint nobody done nothing with the lurk civ since the classical age, so I think they deserve to be eliminated. I guess thad be "We" deserve? Lol whatever.

Kill everything!