RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[Bobchillingworth]

I'm not going to comment on Sulla's hissy-fit besides to say that I can't wait to see his reaction when 4 roman galleys come out of the fog...

[Krill]

Yeah, that's going to be entertaining...

Reckon Sullla will agree he made any mistakes after the game? Or just claim everyone else played to screw him over?

[m4gill4]

Yeah, that's going to be entertaining...

Reckon Sullla will agree he made any mistakes after the game? Or just claim everyone else played to screw him over?

IMO both are true

[sunrise089]

Yeah, that's going to be entertaining...

Reckon Sullla will agree he made any mistakes after the game? Or just claim everyone else played to screw him over?

I think there is a little bit of a disconnect. Obviously we have the benefit of omniscience, but it certainly seemed like S+S could have done a better job trying to secure a real ally, even if it meant making a deal that caused a little short-term pain to India. I imagine though that India will argue every team's actions at each individual moment didn't make sense, even if his own recommended courses of action would have likely seen India coast to victory. Perhaps it can best be understood as a quest for variance in a game where second place doesn't count. Other teams WANT to make the risky play because only by playing risky can you still keep the possibility of a win around. See, for example, my play in RBP1 after T75 which is the epitome of safe and conservative. I stand zero chance of winning the game, but I bet most players in the RBP games are a lot more "type-A" and don't want to accept such a path.

One other thing - I think S+S drastically overestimate the costs of each team to fighting India versus someone else:

*Ottomans - Had HAs sitting around from the conquest of Byzantium.
*Greece - Formed a very close friendship with Ottomans early, so that front is both impossible to attack and diplomatically secure.
*Rome - Already won his own war, Praets also sitting around.
*Mali - Cramped in, so either has to attack India (who has no allies) or Nakor (who has allies) or risk being made totally irrelevant.
*Nakor - Best case to do something else, but still their best alternative (hitting Mali) only butts them up against an indisputably stronger India.

All in all, creating 10 military units doesn't slow down expansion that much...especially if you consider the chance, even 10%, of knocking out the civ that otherwise is the odds-on favorite to win in a NTT game.

[Sir Bruce]

Spullla's best way out of this mess is practically impossible given their diplomatic weaknesses. They just need to get one of the CoW to backstab (HRE is an obvious choice) and they'd probably make it out of the dogpile with at least some future possibilities. But I think they have no shot at convincing any other team to switch allegiances because they'll be too busy sending self-righteous e-mails informing the other teams how pounding India into the ground is such a poor decision.

Looking back, I'd say the GNP demographics chart should be evidence enough that it's dogpile time in a game without tech trading.

[Krill]

I think there is a little bit of a disconnect. Obviously we have the benefit of omniscience, but it certainly seemed like S+S could have done a better job trying to secure a real ally, even if it meant making a deal that caused a little short-term pain to India. I imagine though that India will argue every team's actions at each individual moment didn't make sense, even if his own recommended courses of action would have likely seen India coast to victory. Perhaps it can best be understood as a quest for variance in a game where second place doesn't count. Other teams WANT to make the risky play because only by playing risky can you still keep the possibility of a win around. See, for example, my play in RBP1 after T75 which is the epitome of safe and conservative. I stand zero chance of winning the game, but I bet most players in the RBP games are a lot more "type-A" and don't want to accept such a path.

I so want to comment on this but it would be full of spoilers

[Jabah]

To be honnest it is very hard to accept Sullla opinions saying that it make no sense for all non-neighbours civ to hit them while just 20t ago they were congratulating themselves about having TWICE the GDP (or food or any relevant stats) of their best competitor.
I am sure that with a much lower profil and less 'optimisation' the CoW would have been a much smaller and weaker coalition.

Also, on the other hand, had they (the CoW) delayed their attack by 10t, it very likely would have been to late with cat coming.

[Rowain]

I'm not going to comment on Sulla's hissy-fit besides to say that I can't wait to see his reaction when 4 roman galleys come out of the fog...

I fear for his keyboard when he sees them

[Shoot the Moon]

Just going to point out that posting this in Sulla's thread:

Lurkers: Please note that Nakor/DMOC still didn't declare war. We still don't know what he is planning?

Makes it more clear that Nakor/DMOC are about to declare than what any of the lurkers said. Not that it particularly matters either way, as it is blatantly clear anyway.

And yeah, Spulla's response when he sees Rome should be quite interesting.

[haphazard1]

To be honnest it is very hard to accept Sullla opinions saying that it make no sense for all non-neighbours civ to hit them while just 20t ago they were congratulating themselves about having TWICE the GDP (or food or any relevant stats) of their best competitor.
I am sure that with a much lower profil and less 'optimisation' the CoW would have been a much smaller and weaker coalition.

Is there really any effective way to hide or mask a civ pulling away from the pack? And if you artificially hold back, and do less well than you could...well, that isn't going to win the game either. What course should you take when you have the chance at a significant lead?

I guess you have to work your diplo better, but also trade off some of that growth for a larger military. If Spullla had an extra 8 or so military units during the peace, this might be a very different war. If they had an extra 12 or so units, the war might not have happened.

Also, on the other hand, had they (the CoW) delayed their attack by 10t, it very likely would have been to late with cat coming.

I definitely think the organizers of the CoW deserve credit for massing their attack in time. The window was a bit bigger than 10t -- Spullla were not beelining for Construction or Feudalism at all -- but not much bigger. The threat of a runaway was recognized and they managed to respond in time. Some of the response may be half-hearted or sloppy (as others have noted), but it did happen.