RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[m4gill4]

They were faux friendly and didn't really talk to people they corresponded most with like they were on the same level. Atleast that's what I felt reading them early on.

But wasn't everyone faux-friendly? For example almost all of the CoW members had positively sunny relations with Spullla for the first 85 - 90 (or even 100 in Nakor's case) turns of the game if their diplomatic correspondence is to be believed!

Also, whosit has been every bit as disingenuous as spullla. Look at the way he is plotting with Kathlete for the "core CoW" after india's defeat, leaving out Nakor and Danski? But of course none of that will have any effect on whosit because he's not famous! Look at whosit's diplomacy towards Korea before war broke out and tell me that Spullla is the one who is untrustworthy because of their duplicity?

[Birdman]

But wasn't everyone faux-friendly? For example almost all of the CoW members had positively sunny relations with Spullla for the first 85 - 90 (or even 100 in Nakor's case) turns of the game if their diplomatic correspondence is to be believed!

Also, whosit has been every bit as disingenuous as spullla. Look at the way he is plotting with Kathlete for the "core CoW" after india's defeat, leaving out Nakor and Danski? But of course none of that will have any effect on whosit because he's not famous! Look at whosit's diplomacy towards Korea before war broke out and tell me that Spullla is the one who is untrustworthy because of their duplicity?

I agree somewhat. Whosit joining in this war makes the least sense to me: crashing his economy only to honor agreements. Now those agreements may pay off in the future, but the inevitable backstab will cost him overall.
I think he is being played by the real threat to win this game - Kathlete! Their handling of this has been incredible to watch - commit a few troops, get everybody else bashing each other - profit.

[banshee]

Even now, they are offering things to everyone, blatantly trying to turn Dantski and Nakor on each other, rather than focusing on one civ and putting on the charm offensive. With Dantski and Nakor both in the war, did Spulla really think that they would get away with playing both sides?

This. If you are #1 by a large margin and need allies you have to offer them more than those 50-50 deals Sullla has been proposing. Instead of telling Nakor to attack Dantski and vice versa they should have focused on Nakor, bribing him to just stay out of the war by offering them ALL of Dantskis lands, maybe cash once currency would come in. Or even more. That would have tied down Dantskis forces, perhaps even those of Whosit.

[Krill]

Fame, infamy, who cares. Right now Spullla aren't dead because of Speaker. Anyone heard of him before this game? And if so, where?

[scooter]

Just a few mistakes in Spullla's diplomacy that came to mind:

1. Trying to help sunrise's team (when they were going to die anyways), mildly pissing off Kathlete and Jowy in the process. They kept saying things like "its best to prop up sunrise" - and maybe it was best in the short term, but longterm they would've been much better off hurting sunrise to help Kathlete, possible gaining an ally on the other side of the world. At that point they could've easily split the world in half with Kathlete. Just a thought...

2. Having pretty much no diplomatic relations with Whosit. Once again they wanted to "prop up" the losing side (plako+Broker) to hurt Whosit, and if they had somehow aided Whosit maybe they might actaully have a respectable ally on their side.

3. (this is probably the biggest) Not making a solid alliance with Nakor, instead just "being nice" while portraying them and everyone as else as totally incompetent. Nakor even admitted a couple weeks ago that he probably would have sided with Spullla if the CoW didn't talk to Nakor first. Spullla could've easily long ago agreed to split Dantski's land with Nakor. On top of that, when trying to convince Nakor he was simultaneously trying to get Dantski to attack Nakor! Did he seriously think Nakor would just overlook that like it was no big deal??

This is not to say they've been a total disaster at this game and it's not to say their lead didn't contribute to the mess. They put on a worker micromanagement clinic and jumped out to the best economic position, but their failures at diplomacy left them with no friends and 5 guys going "I can't catch up to them unless they get knocked down a notch or two," so this is the result.

[T-hawk]

Fame, infamy, who cares. Right now Spullla aren't dead because of Speaker. Anyone heard of him before this game? And if so, where?

Sure, Speaker has been around Realms Beyond for years. He played in several Civ 3 events, both RB Epics and succession games, and a handful of Civ 4 SP events before he turned entirely to multiplayer.

[regoarrarr]

Trying to help sunrise's team (when they were going to die anyways),

But they (we) were only going to die BECAUSE nobody helped us. And that was due to Spulla and us not realizing how tight Jowy and Kathlete already were by then.

Had Jowy given us iron, we would not have died. Now I won't go down the debate of whether he should have or not as we've been down that road before, bu I dont' think your sentiment is entirely correct

[scooter]

Fair enough on that point. My main thought there was that Spullla had more to gain longterm (IMO) by aiding Kathlete when it became apparent that you were on your way out of the game, or at least crippled (like plako+Broker are now). Kathlete was setting themselves up to be the #2 team in the game (like they are now), and they blew a chance to befriend them right then, which could've set themselves up for a key alliance with them, essentially splitting the world in half. Yes that's all theoretical, but I do think they mismanaged that situation as it limited their options diplomatically, pretty much eliminating Kathlete (and in turn, Jowy) as a possible friend.

[dazedroyalty]

I can't help but feel like this discussion is a little like when commentators talk about going for it on 4th down (pardon the American Football comparison). If it works out, it was a fantastic idea but if it fails, then the coach was foolish for even trying. Of course the on side kick in the Superbowl was a good "gutsy" move by the Saints because it worked, but if it hadn't worked and the Colts had scored, people would have lambasted the coach.

I feel like that's not unlike the situation now (with some differences of course). Spulla took a particular approach to diplomacy that in this situation failed to work. So now everyone is claiming that their approach was a horrible idea. (I will admit that I personally find the tone of their messages distasteful as well). However, their strategy was legitimate and could have worked, in which case they would be heralded as playing the diplo game extermely well. There is no way they could know all the other civ's relations to one another early on. They took a calculated risk in their diplomatic tone and it failed, unlike the Saints on-side kick.

Now, if someone is going to say that they aren't/weren't even aware of the risk they were taking, that's a different discussion to me.

[Shoot the Moon]

To be completely fair, Spulla diplomatically played about as well as Dantski, Nakor/DMOC, Plako, Inca, and the Byzantines. Yes, Dantski and Nakor/DMOC got in the CoW, but that was only because Kathlete approached them, not of any stellar diplo work of their own. All of those have no real long term allies outside of the CoW. I'd say the only true alliance in this game at this point is the threesome. It just so happens that of those that are not in a real alliance, Spulla was the one that got bitten (well, Byzantine and Plako did, but that wasn't really about diplo work as a move and starting next to aggressive Rome, respectively).