Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[Mr. Cairo]

But the thing that bugs me so much is all these people doing it AFTER the vote! This was what the campaigning period was for. Most of these people demonstrating shared their statuses in a smug bubble over confident. However people like me genuinely put hours and hours of contacts in to make this happen. This is the most irksome thing about it. It's like children whining that they 'weren't prepared for such a hard exam and can we have a redo because we will work harder next time. Pretty please'

This simply isn't true. Maybe a small minority of internet assholes are like this, but where I live in the deep South (Chichester) I saw just as much effort being put into the Remain campaign as the Leave campaign, by people who passionately believe in either side. I'm sure at first, most people who supported remain never expected to lose, and weren't putting as much effort into it as you were, I know that my family certainly never thought it would happen (personally I had always thought that Leave would win). But as the polls drew closer and the rhetoric grew nastier, yeah, Remainers got concerned, they got worried, and the fact that they are still out there trying to do what they think is best for this country, should tell just how much they care about this issue, not how little.


I'll end with one final point, the thing that gets me personally mad about the result.

People in the UK voted leave based primarily on 4 issues:
1) Opposition to the freedom of movement that comes with being in the EU
2) Opposition to the UK paying money into the EU budget
3) Opposition to having to obey EU rules and regulations
4) Opposition to the idea of the UK being further integrated into the EU

Of those four issues, only #4 will actually be successful.

Not one of the possible candidates for PM right now are going to pull Britain out of the single market. Leaving the single market will cause a recession, and even if Britain can eventually stand on its own, it wont happen fast enough for the person responsible for it to avoid being voted out of office. The same is true if the next PM ignores the referendum result and keeps the UK in the EU.

So, the next PM will try and keep the UK in the single market, and the price for that will be continued freedom of movement, continued payment into the EU budget, and continued enforcement of EU rules and regulations.

You may well say that the UK economy is too important to the EU for them to play hardball in the negotiations, but the truth is, the EU can survive with the UK. It can't survive if it shows weakness when negotiating with the UK. As soon as the result came in, the EU cut its losses, and gave up on the UK. Anything it is able to get from the UK as a price for staying in the SM is a bonus.

So I have to ask you. Is succeeding in keeping the UK out of a fully integrated EU alone worth all the chaos and uncertainty that is gripping the UK right now?

[Mr. Cairo]

If Remain had won instead, I highly doubt you'd be saying "well, guess I have to support Britain's membership of the EU forever now."

That's interesting. It leaves me wondering, why was the referendum held in the first place? If not for this, then why?

(I haven't been paying attention to this whole Brexit thing before after the fact, it didn't get a lot of coverage in Norway, presumably because everyone considered it a formality.)

The referendum was held due to the internal politics of the Conservative party. Prior to the 2015 election, the tories risked losing a lot of anti-EU voters to UKIP, which would have split their vote and potentially lost the election to labour (thanks to FPTP), or at least result in another hung parliament, only this time without any chance of a coalition.
So he said two things to win that election: first, there'll be a simple, in-out referendum on EU membership (which people wanted), and he'll try and renegotiate Britain's membership so that Britain can remain in the EU, but without the things that people don't like about it (it was mainly free movement of people that he wanted to renegotiate). It worked, the tories won a majority, and off Cameron went to renegotiate Britain's membership. He failed on that front, Leave support started rising in the polls, and he ran a terrible campaign for Remain, and now his career is over, and the UK will leave the EU.

I'm a little confused here about this one. Hasn't the Remain campaign shown that the Tories and Labour are basically the same party? Or at least Inner Party vs. Outer Party. I'd think that would gut the party nominally rightish.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Although Cameron headed the remain campaign, a lot of tory politicians and voters supported leaving (it was to keep them on side in 2015 that he called the referendum). A significant number of labour voters supported leave (although not a majority), but the entire party (with the possible exception of its leader, Jeremy Corbyn) were strongly in favour of remaining, but because the majority of labour politicians already opposed Corbyn, the labour party never really got its act together during the campaign (with the exception of Sadiq Khan). But there are lot of domestic issues that even the centrists in the labour party oppose the conservatives on, despite being "on the same side" as Cameron during the referendum.

[pindicator]

I haven't voted since I was a dumb young Libertarian in 2004, don't plan on starting now. This is a weird (and hilarious) year. Odd to have the two major candidates both hovering around 60% unfavorability rating, but it makes sense if you think of it less as "I'm voting for this person" and more "he/she is a bastard/bitch, let's punish the other side".

That's about the only thing either of them campaign on right now: "I'm not [INSERT NAME]; they're evil; don't let them win; vote for me."

[Commodore]

I haven't voted since I was a dumb young Libertarian in 2004, don't plan on starting now. This is a weird (and hilarious) year. Odd to have the two major candidates both hovering around 60% unfavorability rating, but it makes sense if you think of it less as "I'm voting for this person" and more "he/she is a bastard/bitch, let's punish the other side".

That's about the only thing either of them campaign on right now: "I'm not [INSERT NAME]; they're evil; don't let them win; vote for me."

I'd read it even further. It's "let's put a final bullet in the Stale Old Americans" or "hang those elitists from the gibbets". Antipathy is less toward the opposing candidate, more toward the opposing side.

In America, it's always the Civil War. Puritans and Quakers vs. Cavaliers and Borderers.

[DaveV]

I haven't voted since I was a dumb young Libertarian in 2004, don't plan on starting now.

Why? I'm honestly interested in hearing the perspective of a non-voter.

My perspective: if I don't vote, my future is being determined by someone who probably puts a lot less thought into his vote than I do.

[Commodore]

Why? I'm honestly interested in hearing the perspective of a non-voter.

My perspective: if I don't vote, my future is being determined by someone who probably puts a lot less thought into his vote than I do.

My perspective:
-If I don't vote, my future is being determined by someone who hates me and I never voted for anyway.

-If I do vote, my future is being determined by someone who hates me and I never voted for anyway. Plus I had to stand in line on my vacation dime.

I'll make an exception for local elections at times. As for the rest; 天高皇帝远.

[pindicator]

Why? I'm honestly interested in hearing the perspective of a non-voter.

My perspective: if I don't vote, my future is being determined by someone who probably puts a lot less thought into his vote than I do.

My perspective:
-If I don't vote, my future is being determined by someone who hates me and I never voted for anyway.

-If I do vote, my future is being determined by someone who hates me and I never voted for anyway. Plus I had to stand in line on my vacation dime.

I'll make an exception for local elections at times. As for the rest; 天高皇帝远.

Well, if there's ever an election to vote for your favorite 3rd party candidate, this is the one. If the Libertarian/Green/YourPartyOfChoice candidate can get 5% of the popular vote then they will qualify for federal funding in the next election. That could end up being a big deal for 2020.

Also, voting day should be a national holiday. Either that or switch the entire country to vote by mail / drop box.

[picklepikkl]

In America, it's always the Civil War. Puritans and Quakers vs. Cavaliers and Borderers.

Oh hey, another Albion's Seed fan. None of my family were in this country before the early 20th century, so I can technically bow out of that conflict, but if those battle lines get drawn up I know which side I'm rooting for.

[Bacchus]

I'm not sure why keeping the UK in the single market means continuing payments into the EU budget, Mr. Cairo.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

But the thing that bugs me so much is all these people doing it AFTER the vote! This was what the campaigning period was for. Most of these people demonstrating shared their statuses in a smug bubble over confident. However people like me genuinely put hours and hours of contacts in to make this happen. This is the most irksome thing about it. It's like children whining that they 'weren't prepared for such a hard exam and can we have a redo because we will work harder next time. Pretty please'

This simply isn't true. Maybe a small minority of internet assholes are like this, but where I live in the deep South (Chichester) I saw just as much effort being put into the Remain campaign as the Leave campaign, by people who passionately believe in either side. I'm sure at first, most people who supported remain never expected to lose, and weren't putting as much effort into it as you were, I know that my family certainly never thought it would happen (personally I had always thought that Leave would win). But as the polls drew closer and the rhetoric grew nastier, yeah, Remainers got concerned, they got worried, and the fact that they are still out there trying to do what they think is best for this country, should tell just how much they care about this issue, not how little.


I'll end with one final point, the thing that gets me personally mad about the result.

People in the UK voted leave based primarily on 4 issues:
1) Opposition to the freedom of movement that comes with being in the EU
2) Opposition to the UK paying money into the EU budget
3) Opposition to having to obey EU rules and regulations
4) Opposition to the idea of the UK being further integrated into the EU

Of those four issues, only #4 will actually be successful.

Not one of the possible candidates for PM right now are going to pull Britain out of the single market. Leaving the single market will cause a recession, and even if Britain can eventually stand on its own, it wont happen fast enough for the person responsible for it to avoid being voted out of office. The same is true if the next PM ignores the referendum result and keeps the UK in the EU.

So, the next PM will try and keep the UK in the single market, and the price for that will be continued freedom of movement, continued payment into the EU budget, and continued enforcement of EU rules and regulations.

You may well say that the UK economy is too important to the EU for them to play hardball in the negotiations, but the truth is, the EU can survive with the UK. It can't survive if it shows weakness when negotiating with the UK. As soon as the result came in, the EU cut its losses, and gave up on the UK. Anything it is able to get from the UK as a price for staying in the SM is a bonus.

So I have to ask you. Is succeeding in keeping the UK out of a fully integrated EU alone worth all the chaos and uncertainty that is gripping the UK right now?

Yes. 100%. EU and UK need each other as much. I actually believe the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU (certain sections do anyway). I'm quite happy with the way things have turned out. Most of the MPs standing for PM are not going to accept anything less than movement controls. This is much more important than access to the free market IMO. The big beasts gain little from the movement, yet could lose hugely with lack of trade. EU regs are only required now on EU products, and we will pay less for market access.