Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[ipecac]

Unfortunately, no. The reason for the midnight runs on formula is hungry babies. Ipecac was worried about UBI being misspent, but draining your EBT on Cheez-wiz and running out of food for your kid is pretty much the epitome of "misspending". So yes, UBI will be insufficient, although I'm not sure if that's reason to throw it out.

My point was that 'UBI without welfare' is not realistic. You have to provide other sort of welfare anyway for the squanderers, so why even bother trying to get rid of welfare.

[Bacchus]

You have to provide other sort of welfare anyway for the squanderers

That's where the right-winginess of pure UBI advocates gets to work. If provided with the proper means to lead different kinds of life, some people choose homelessness and alcoholism, that's a choice they should be encouraged not to make, but have a right to make, and live through the consequences.

[T-hawk]

The problem with enforcing "live through the consequences" is the hungry babies. They didn't do the squandering and it wasn't their fault they were born to idiot parents.

But any suggestion that people shouldn't breed babies they won't support gets screamed down as elitist and classist and even racist when it is noticed those babies correlate with brownness.

[ipecac]

In such a time of flux, it makes sense that some right-wingers are starting to explore traditionally 'left' policies, socialism (of the non-Marxist variety). Clearly free markets can't support the nationalism they want, so they need to come up with something different.

When kids are making memes like these, we live in interesting times of realignment. Some might call it the Synthesis phase.



(Trigger Warning: fascist-phobes beware)

[Tasunke]

It is strange indeed, the economy is in a Bad Bad situation

But it isn't.  Consumer confidence, the stock market, employment, GDP are all solidly up for Trump's entire time in office.

Inequality is up.  That is not Bad Bad however much it gets screamed about.  The historical state of human economic affairs has always been that the vast majority barely lives on subsistence.  The rise of the middle class was a temporary aberration due to the industrial revolution, not a new norm.

That sufficient technology exists now to produce sufficient fruits for everyone neither creates an entitlement to those fruits nor prevents foolish disposal of them.

T-hawk .... I am happy that GDP is up I suppose. Employment has largely been lied about for decades so that metric is hardly reliable.

Consumer confidence and the Stock Market are purely psychological metrics. Retail chains across the nation are closing at locations, and I *really* hope that small mom and pop stores are replacing them but I doubt it. Only chain retain that are opening stores are Dollar Tree/Dollar Store and Amazon.

Yea, for most of human history there have been huge inequalities, revolutions, et al. For the longest time the 1st amendment, the Universities, and other cultural standards of open discourse in USA had protected America from local revolutions ... but sadly, that has all fallen apart due to the "slow march through the instutitions" of the Communists and near total censorship at certain levels because mini-Marx is afraid of "Herr Himmler Reborn" or something. Sad truth is, Karl Marx himself would largely be considered Fascist or National Socialist by many of these pink haired Neo-Commies.

I am no arch foe or nemesis of the Industrialist per se, but if you cannot see that the purchasing power of the American is crumbling then I'm not sure what I can do for you. MegaCorps, Feudalism, Communism, Fascism ... the future will not be filled with freedom, because Freedom is reliant on these "Blips" as you call them. If you think that "this" economy is the ideal, then I can't see how people like you can bring this Nation into a future free of Totalitarianism or Death.

[ipecac]

It would be interesting to see this board play Mock Congress. How would y'all go about formulating a compromise if you were forced to? (On immigration, say.)

One practically unknown point is that general amnesty has been tried before and failed, 30 years ago under Reagan. Essentially they said "we'll be forgiving and overlook your crimes, even provide a path to citizenship, but (wags finger reprovingly) no more illegal immigration, you understand?" 30 years later, things haven't changed, except maybe they've gotten worse.

So general amnesty is not a revolutionary reform, it's something that's been tried and failed. It's just another attempt by politicians to kick the can down the road and not actually solve the problem. They propose something they know won't work and that they themselves will ensure its failure.

[AdrienIer]

fascist-phobes

That's a very strange use of the term. If you're not fascist-phobe, wouldn't that make you fascist-tolerant ? Which would make you part of the problem.

Sad truth is, Karl Marx himself would largely be considered Fascist or National Socialist by many of these pink haired Neo-Commies.

Either you know nothing about Marx or you know nothing about the "young left", either in the US or elsewhere. In which case your strawmaning isn't very efficient.

One practically unknown point is that general amnesty has been tried before and failed, 30 years ago under Reagan. Essentially they said "we'll be forgiving and overlook your crimes, even provide a path to citizenship, but (wags finger reprovingly) no more illegal immigration, you understand?" 30 years later, things haven't changed, except maybe they've gotten worse.

So general amnesty is not a revolutionary reform, it's something that's been tried and failed. It's just another attempt by politicians to kick the can down the road and not actually solve the problem. They propose something they know won't work and that they themselves will ensure its failure.

Until central america becomes a lot more stable there will always be people trying to enter the US on the mexican border. Central america (plus parts of south america) are in the US's sphere of influence, so if the US isn't trying to help them get rid of their corruption/gang/instability problem the immigrants will keep on coming.
If you don't want immigrants, help develop central/south america. As for the migrants that have arrived, the choice is between humiliating them or not humiliating them. The Obama administration chose the latter, the Trump administration the former.

[T-hawk]

Retail chains across the nation are closing at locations

This is a comparison to Amazon and its economies of scale, not to purchasing power.  Give everybody a million and Amazon is still more efficient.

if you cannot see that the purchasing power of the American is crumbling

I have several answers to that.

One, it's not.  Supposedly-poor people continue to buy more every decade: cell phones, Internet connectivity, larger living spaces, more amenities like air-conditioning, more travel, more Starbucks.  Adjust for quality-of-life increases and the purchasing power does not decline.

Two, it's relative.  If your purchasing power remains steady at a Hyundai while your CEO's escalates from a Lexus to a Lamborghini, that will be cited as a decline even though yours didn't change.

Three, even if it is crumbling: that Amazon has achieved economies of scale does not constitute an obligation to give back those gains or any entitlement to receive them.

[Bobchillingworth]

O my .... reactionaries you say? I've seen some fairly depraved actions taken by antifa at certain rallies to be sure, but outside of that I haven't seen much in the way of Depravity, on the right or the left.

And I suppose reactionary only describes those people that ordinarily would have been largely apolitical if not for the invasion of the ideological goose-steppers.  (in this case invasion does not mean the mass movement of peoples, but instead the invasiveness of 'relatively' recent political pushes, both in general cultural pushes, legal pushes, and laws which were actually past)

It is strange indeed, the economy is in a Bad Bad situation, and yet people wish to push ideology in a situation like that? Better to focus on economy first, and then push some sort of other kind of reform ... when the economy is bad what does the rest matter for the ordinary citizen? And yet, with party politics and 4 year terms and this and that well ... the temptation is to try and do everything at once instead of taking the long view. Sad really, but I suppose unavoidable with a First Past the Post system which gives rise to the 2 party politics.

From what I have seen, at least of the ideological sort, is that after bleeding heart liberals inherently break a nation, either A) they leave, or B) are in firm self denial until suffering some sort of fatality from the 'South African treatment'.

Tasunke... what are you saying here? I've read this post a couple times now and am still unsure what point you're trying to make. The part about "bleeding heart liberals" inherently "break[ing] a nation" and then leaving is nonsense on its face, but the rest is just confusing.

Unfortunately, no. The reason for the midnight runs on formula is hungry babies. Ipecac was worried about UBI being misspent, but draining your EBT on Cheez-wiz and running out of food for your kid is pretty much the epitome of "misspending". So yes, UBI will be insufficient, although I'm not sure if that's reason to throw it out.

Foam about that response however you wish, Nicolae, I don't have a dog in last century's political fight.

Okay, first off, I have never heard of any Costco that's open at midnight, nor of anyone ever blowing their food benefits on "Cheez-wiz", much less this being a symptom some sort of epidemic. This entire anecdote is specious. Beyond those minor details though, it would be nice to have some clarification about why you're so shocked about lower-income people purchasing baby formula, as though it were cause for moral panic. "Poor people shouldn't be allowed to breed" is certainly a bold position to take, but if that's your conviction you should have the courage to state it outright, rather than tossing out something that looks suspiciously like a bomb and then excusing yourself by saying you don't have a stake in the ensuing aftermath.

In such a time of flux, it makes sense that some right-wingers are starting to explore traditionally 'left' policies, socialism (of the non-Marxist variety). Clearly free markets can't support the nationalism they want, so they need to come up with something different.

When kids are making memes like these, we live in interesting times of realignment. Some might call it the Synthesis phase.

Okay, someone's posting neo-Nazi memes on RB. That's a first.

You're fond of tossing around the phrase "fascist-phobic", as though being opposed to fascism is cause for disdain; should this be taken to mean that you are pro-fascist?

[ipecac]

fascist-phobes

That's a very strange use of the term. If you're not fascist-phobe, wouldn't that make you fascist-tolerant ? Which would make you part of the problem.

Not really, it means I'm not afraid of them, not looking for excuse to rant about fascists in between ranting about them like Nicolae.

You're fond of tossing around the phrase "fascist-phobic", as though being opposed to fascism is cause for disdain; should this be taken to mean that you are pro-fascist?

I use it in a clinical sense, a mental health sense. People all across the political spectrum here can tell that Nicolae has issues, for example.