RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[SevenSpirits]

If Athlete constantly launched personal attacks on people, threatened to quit all the time, and generally behaved as Speaker has behaved, would ANYONE be defending him?? I really doubt it...

If interspersed with all that he also posted detailed commentary and strategic insights, someone would defend him, yes.

[Axiis]

Axiis, your arguments are well put, but I find myself unable to agree with any of them. Your premise seems to be "if I decide the play/player is an example of greatness then they should be allowed to break the rules."

I can certainly see where that's coming from, but what I was going for was the premise that the context of the call can be as or more important than the letter of the rule. It is perfectly ok for a referee to use his discretion and not call a foul for a variety of reasons. For example, a referee really shouldn't be making borderline calls in game deciding moments. I hope I didn't express the idea that the call should be based on some arbitrary level of greatness, because that would be a bastard cousin of what I was actually going for. Sorry if I was unclear.

Last thing I want to quote: I fail to see how rewarding illegal plays that give one side an unfair advantage is what's good about competition. To me calling the plays correctly is the essence of honorable professional sport.

It's less about rewarding illegal play and more about not trying to take the game away from the players and bog everyone down.

[Serdoa]

@Krill

Sorry if I am somehow wrong that they could have killed the stack without his culture. But from looking at the pictures they did have the movement points available on turn 225 to reach 1N of Gao, the killing happened on turn 226. He might have hold the cavs back on turn 225 - but he did know at that turn that there is a stack of cannons and thus I would assume he would have moved his cavs if he knowed that his other war plan is not within the rules.

Though, I see the issue that when we talk about different movement by Speaker we would also have to talk about if Nakor could have used his cannons to attack the stack 1N of Gao and so on and so on.

[pindicator]

Doesn't it seem ironic that the lurkers are more worked up over the rules violation than the players are? Doesn't that seem antagonistic to the very purpose of having rules to MP play? Rules are for the players, not the peanut gallery -- just as Krill says, to make the game move smoothly. how is forcing every player to reload several turns back when they don't choose to making the game run smoothly?

Yes, I can see that from an "objective" perspective that this rule break shouldn't be let free when other rule violations were enforced. But other rule violations also had the support of at least one injured party. Instead it appears the lurkers are trying to convince Nakor to lodge a complaint. That makes it feel like the lurkers are the ones with the biggest horse in the race, like we're the ones who are the injured party.

Really, who are these games for? Are they for us, the lurkers? Or are they for the players? I think any admin needs to keep that in mind -- yes, perhaps it is a bit more like arbitration, but it also is keeping the game running smoothly.

I would definitely want Krill to make sure all parties are informed about the rule violation and what it was and how it could potentially have impacted them. But if nobody wants to go back and reload, then why should we make them? What good would that serve?

Let's leave it to the players to decide. It's their game, their time invested. If they all want to continue, then let them. If one of them wants to enforce it then let Krill wield his admin stick.

[Krill]

@Krill

Sorry if I am somehow wrong that they could have killed the stack without his culture. But from looking at the pictures they did have the movement points available on turn 225 to reach 1N of Gao, the killing happened on turn 226. He might have hold the cavs back on turn 225 - but he did know at that turn that there is a stack of cannons and thus I would assume he would have moved his cavs if he knowed that his other war plan is not within the rules.

Though, I see the issue that when we talk about different movement by Speaker we would also have to talk about if Nakor could have used his cannons to attack the stack 1N of Gao and so on and so on.

Exactly. it gets into a very circular debate, talking about what is the best tactic etc...which ignores the whole point of the game: neither player has all of the information so won't know what the best tactic is.

[Jabah]

Doesn't it seem ironic that the lurkers are more worked up over the rules violation than the players are? Doesn't that seem antagonistic to the very purpose of having rules to MP play? Rules are for the players, not the peanut gallery -- just as Krill says, to make the game move smoothly. how is forcing every player to reload several turns back when they don't choose to making the game run smoothly?

Yes, I can see that from an "objective" perspective that this rule break shouldn't be let free when other rule violations were enforced. But other rule violations also had the support of at least one injured party. Instead it appears the lurkers are trying to convince Nakor to lodge a complaint. That makes it feel like the lurkers are the ones with the biggest horse in the race, like we're the ones who are the injured party.

Really, who are these games for? Are they for us, the lurkers? Or are they for the players? I think any admin needs to keep that in mind -- yes, perhaps it is a bit more like arbitration, but it also is keeping the game running smoothly.

I would definitely want Krill to make sure all parties are informed about the rule violation and what it was and how it could potentially have impacted them. But if nobody wants to go back and reload, then why should we make them? What good would that serve?

Let's leave it to the players to decide. It's their game, their time invested. If they all want to continue, then let them. If one of them wants to enforce it then let Krill wield his admin stick.

I think the main problem here is that HRE didn't realise that a rule was broken. Would have they realise it, they would have called for a pause [if they were still thinking it would have matter a bit] to solve the problem.

Shouldn't HRE [and possibly Korea and Slaze - who are slightly interested in having India not overrun HRE too fast] be told EXACTLY what the problem AND the consequences are, because right now, I think HRE thinks it is only a matter of killing the 'redlined' units and nothing more [ie not about the cannons stack].

[pindicator]

I think the main problem here is that HRE didn't realise that a rule was broken. Would have they realise it, they would have called for a pause [if they were still thinking it would have matter a bit] to solve the problem.

Shouldn't HRE [and possibly Korea and Slaze - who are slightly interested in having India to overrun HRE too fast] be told EXACTLY what the problem AND the consequences are, because right now, I think HRE thinks it is only a matter of killing the 'redlined' units and nothing more [ie not about the cannons stack].

Yes, they absolutely should. Like I said above, let Krill inform the players about what the rule break was and how it affected them. But all the chatter in Nakor's thread looks more like a bunch of people pushing Nakor to fight it rather than letting him make his own decision. Let's just leave it to the admin so he doesn't get ganged up on and can make his own decisions.

[zakalwe]

I agree with some of the previous posters... I don't blame the players, who have invested a lot of time in this game, for getting worked up about it -- but it seems to me that some of the lurkers are taking the game way too seriously.

[scooter]

What happened with this game btw? Nothings happened in a couple days now, and Civstats has apparently been down since the 30th.

[Shoot the Moon]

What happened with this game btw? Nothings happened in a couple days now, and Civstats has apparently been down since the 30th.

The game is down (as it also is in the other pitbosses).