[PB65] Pinch-Hitting Pindicator

[civac2]

Decisive turning points in culture wars are culture expansions. You get 20 bonus culture in your existing area every time culture expands. (Example: after the second culture expansion you get (city culture + 1) in outer ring, (city culture + 21) in second ring and city culture + 41 in inner ring each turn.)

[NobleHelium]

A wild NobleHelium appears!

pindicator, 21 min
Superdeath sent us a trade: open borders in exchange for only me at war with Cornflakes. I can't make sense of it unless it's a warning of some kind
Oh wait wrong window

NobleHelium, 21 min
wrong window?
oh you meant to tell krill
i thought you meant wrong window in game
i was like

pindicator, 21 min
Thought I was sending that to hitru in discord

NobleHelium, 20 min
how do you misread a trade
you can always talk to me about civ4 though
anyway maybe superdeath wants OB so he can go attack cornflakes
if that makes sense for the map

pindicator, 20 min
We both border Cornflakes already

NobleHelium, 19 min
is his border narrow?
maybe he wants a better attacking position
maybe he wants to attack from multiple angles
maybe i'm giving superdeath way too much credit
maybe he wants you to attack cornflakes at the same time then

pindicator, 18 min
The map is in general a ribbon of land with 3 of us on the north coast and 3 on the south. SD, Cornflakes, and I are all on the south

NobleHelium, 18 min
he didn't do mutual war so that you couldn't accept before he was ready maybe
so you guys are in a row but somehow all three borders are touching?
oh i guess it is wrapping

pindicator, 17 min
He borders Cornflakes on the far side of the map
Anyway Cornflakes has the lead, he's been a bit of a bully to everyone except me so far

NobleHelium, 16 min
i think the most reasonable interpretation is mutual attack on cornflakes

pindicator, 15 min
True. It's still early, and I think Cornflakes only has a short term advantage. He's used bulbs and military might in the ancient era/ very early classic

NobleHelium, 15 min
still early is the most likely time for superdeath to attack

pindicator, 15 min
This is a slow map too: t104 and nobody has currency yet

NobleHelium, 15 min
quick speed?
normal speed?

pindicator, 13 min
Normal, just not very lush

NobleHelium, 13 min
who made the map
also what combo is superdeath playing

pindicator, 12 min
I'd say I have a long term advantage: I used an early GA and Oracle to get into HR and I'm a few turns away from currency
Commodore

NobleHelium, 12 min
oracle doesn't really scream long term advantage to me
or early GA being used for that matter
both those things say short term advantage

pindicator, 12 min
No, but the map really warranted it

NobleHelium, 11 min
i'm not saying it was bad, but it sounds like you want to leverage it as much as possible

pindicator, 11 min
Small map meant everyone bankrupt themselves trying to grab what little land they're was

NobleHelium, 11 min
so what combo is sd playing
that will likely inform a substantial part of his behavior

pindicator, 11 min
Darius of Byzantium
He held back a bit on the expansion to tech, but then Cornflakes beat a city off him about 10 turns ago

NobleHelium, 10 min
okay so he might be pissed about that
playing byzantium means it is less likely for him to attack now though

pindicator, 10 min
Yeah like I said Cornflakes has been a bit of a bully

NobleHelium, 9 min
anyway i'm still going with mutual war with cornflakes. you don't have currency so you can't respond with some sort of gold indicating a countdown if you're interested though

pindicator, 8 min
I sent him a straight OB deal back with that in mind
I'm PRO so it doesn't do any benefit for me

NobleHelium, 8 min
i see
well you could scout him and see if his units indicate some sort of attack intention

pindicator, 6 min
It's a pretty cool game so far really. There are 3 or 4 of us pretty close to the lead
Cornflakes is full on Pyramid economy with Arabia. Mjmd has REXed out to the most cities but I fear may have really crippled his research. SD is trying a slower expansion to get his tech goals. And I'm trying to take a balanced approach

[pindicator]

104

Let's not bury the lead:







Chops came in and we landed the wonder just as planned. It's always interesting that the cities which come later in production order will get the extra population to work the fields, while the ones coming earlier do not. Nothing worth planning around here, but a neat detail all-the-same.

Backing up a turn, I continue to get interesting diplo messages. Superdeath sent me a trade of Open Borders and then I declare on Cornflakes. I was thinking this was a warning, as NobleHelium posted, but now I wonder if this is instead an invitation. To keep us talking, I responded to Superdeath with Open Borders - a deal which gives me nothing and gives SD free commerce (but not much: he has OBs with other players already), but does let me try to sus out what he intends. And this turn he again sent a new message: a demand of me declaring on Cornflakes. Looking at the power graph, I think I understand a bit better:




Also, let's step back a little more and look at recent events:



God, another great prophet. I wonder whose this is?

Cornflakes has managed to bulb Theology, and i think I know now whey he hasn't gotten Currency. Instead he has picked up all the religious techs and then a couple turns ago bulbed Code of Laws. Potentially he could keep going now if he wanted to, and be able to conquer some more staying afloat with Courthouses. But surely it would have just been simpler to tech Currency first? In any case, he has jumped out to a rather large tech lead due to the 3 bulbs he has done so far. (Assuming he bulbed Math to squeeze ahead of me on the Pyramids, he's now bulbed Math, Theology, and Code of Laws with his 3 great people.) He's running a lot of short-term benefits and his challenge will be to turn those into long-term advantages.

I suspect Superdeath is incorrectly assessing that Cornflakes is about to runaway with the game. I'm not convinced he has a sustainable edge here. (Yet should he go on to conquer a neighbor then I'll be more convinced. But I think Cornflakes really needs to conquer someone wholesale and do it now.) So that would explain what Superdeath is really doing here: he's gearing up for war. And the power graph bears that out.

HBR isn't coming too soon here.


Meanwhile, on the other end of things Mjmd made yet another demand on t103. This came on his t103 so I would have gotten it at the start of this turn if I hadn't logged in earlier to check something else in game. Obviously I needed that stone to complete HG this turn, but now that the wonder is complete I don't think there is any harm in giving Mjmd stone for 10 turns. I gifted it to him on my turn, so he will get it when he plays his next.


Took demo screenshots after turn so I could count all that sweet Hanging Gardens population:




Also, I have 3 cities in the top 5:




Might start getting people's attention soon. Especially when I turn on the science next turn and we land Currency end of t106.

[pindicator]

105

I might have not assessed Cornflakes' situation correctly:




So it looks like he researched Code of Laws manually as well and then used the Great Prophet to bulb Civil Service.  This is a nice boost for a golden age and his capital, but I think my assessment last turn about him needing to eat a neighbor is still true.  Is he aiming to eat sucksatciv up wholesale here or just nibbling again?

In either case, superdeath is being very insistent.  Two more diplo messages from him on my turn, the first saying we both go to war against Cornflakes and the second demanding that I do.  So I sent back a war with Cornflakes proposal.  If he accepts then we both show as being at war with Cornflakes but not until Cornflakes' t106 turn.  In addition a sent a proposal to Mjmd for us both to declare on Cornflakes.  This one I do not expect Mjmd to commit to, but I'm assuming Superdeath has also been spamming Mjmd with requests to go to war, and so maybe I can nudge Mjmd towards a dogpile by sending him a similar message.

If Superdeath accepts and Mjmd does not then I do not expect to send any troops in.  If Mjmd also accepts then I may try to scrounge together a small stack.

In either case, I'm going to start unit production.




Cornflakes' GNP & MFG stats equal mine with his civic swaps.  This is encouraging.  However I expect Cornflakes to tech Monarchy during his GA so he can swap into HR by the end of it.

[Zed-F]

It sounds like an alliance to cut down the tall poppy is indeed in order! Hopefully this works, you can make some gains, and don’t draw too much attention in the process.

[Krill]

104

Also, I have 3 cities in the top 5:

105

Cornflakes' GNP & MFG stats equal mine with his civic swaps.  This is encouraging.  However I expect Cornflakes to tech Monarchy during his GA so he can swap into HR by the end of it.

[pindicator]

I'm encouraged he didn't jump way ahead in GNP or MFG with his civic swap to Bureaucracy. Since he is in Rep I would guess he could have size 9 or 10 cities for his largest if he had grown up that way. I take this to mean our empires are currently pretty equivalent

And yeah, Monarchy was a dumb call. He's starting in Rep. More concerning would be him getting Machinery for maces, or Construction for catapults I'm blaming that one on whatever cold I have that made me go to bed right after writing that up last night.

[Krill]

(Note before reading this post I was going to sub in this game before Hurricane Ian and I've not read any other threads for about 4 months apart from this one)

Is it spoilers if I just quote parts of a posters own posts back at them like this:

I'm

encouraged he didn't jump way ahead in GNP or MFG with his civic swap to Bureaucracy. Since he is in Rep I would guess he could have size 9 or 10 cities for his largest if he had grown up that way. I take this to mean our empires are currently pretty equivalent 

And yeah, Monarchy was a

dumb

call. He's starting in Rep.  More concerning would be him getting Machinery for maces, or Construction for catapults I'm blaming that one on whatever cold I have that made me go to bed right after writing that up last night.

Asking for a friend...

[pindicator]

I mean, I'm just as surprised as you are that I'm a contender in this

[Krill]

Why did you sign to this game then, to be a human speed bump?