[Spoilers]C6PBEM23: Krill sidles yonder, and probably fails

[RefSteel]

Reflecting on how I got to this point I see a whole range of errors recently, and I'll get to them again, but I'm not sure how this start should have been played?

You know maybe it wouldn't feel so bad if the little land I had wasn't actually ice?

I don't know much about Civ6, but that certainly looks like a tough position to be in! I could imagine that some weird combination of civ6 mechanics might make it more playable than it looks to me, but if so, of course I don't know what it would be!

[Krill]

A lurker sighting, a veritable lurker sighting!

You should play in a civ 6 game Ref. It's actually an interesting game. I'm not sure if you read the Canadian exploits in PBEM18, but there is always something to work towards, unlike Civ 4.

I think the "weird" Civ 6 mechanics worked against this start in some respects, but were compounded by my skill issues. Loyalty and the X Age mechanics make it harder to forward settle (but not impossible! this is probably one of my mistakes), but not impossible. A simple guv'nor would have resolved alot of the trouble, but doesn't cover for the fact greenline has a 50% larger military (but I've only seen warriors and archers from him, maybe some of it are boats he can't use?) The problem all stems back to my poor scouting.

If I had scouted better in the early game I would have seen how close Korea was, I would have met Venice earlier, and I would have found TAD and not assumed the NW was safe expansion land. I would have focused on actually building a sufficient military (although the swap to Agoge was well timed and it worked). I probably needed to bite the bullet and get the pantheon earlier as well, rather than saving the era score for now. With proper deployment, rather than flailing at barbs, I could have pushed and settled the near Korean city, and set up a defensive line. All that effort for one extra city? It's a good city though.

The cost would have been delayed growth in the capital. With all other leaders this would have been a no brainer because of growth mechanics but I tunnel visioned on Yongle. That's why I'm trying to be rational: this isn't "the map screwed me", or complaints about randomness. I made decisions that at the moment look like mistakes. I'll be screwing with greenline for the rest of this game because I misjudged the actions he would take and I'm paying the price (that and he is rejecting all overtures at diplomacy, he does have significant impact on how I'm engaging with him).

There are ways to make tundra usable, and as Yongle I just need to get cities to size 10 for a massive +1b, +1c, +2g per pop. The problem is production, and available resources. But even on that, a strong capital with the 4th promotion on Magnus (already have 3) reduces resource costs by 80%, so there are ways to stay small and yet still be in a winnable position (well, maybe?)

[Krill]

Turn 68

Major turn. Not planned.




If I'd kept on scouting north at the start I would likely have found Preslav two turns after I turned back. So much for not going military early.

The quest is build a catapult. Possible but unlikely.





There was no chance of meeting Zanzibar earlier. FWIW, Venice was actually equidistant between Korea and China, but harder to approach for the Chinese starting position. I think it's fair to say that from a City State perspective the Chinese start was in a greater hole.

The quest is build an encampment, so I have no real opportunity to complete this, nor to interact with Zanzibar, so I'm at another disadvantage and need to hope someome else removes them form the game (unlikely unless Korea takes suzerain status and Chev or Whosit is a neighbour and dislikes that situation, and can actually do something about it).

This triggers the PP inspiration and completes it. I've spent time thinking what I was going to do with these three turns between finishing the galley and being able to start something else. Turns out that was a waste of time.




I don't quite like this, but here is my reasoning: Conscription saves me 4gpt, better than anything else and I have a gold starved position (I need harbours, but I need to find a natural wonder as I need the eureka from Astrology fo a Heroic Age). Diplomacy card is obvious I don't even have any envoys to use. Urban PLanning is greatest output, but Ilkum saves me enough hammers at Long to use Faith Lilja to complete a pantheon eot72 (with input from the third city) (changed up the micro for granary eot70, pantheon eot72, builder eot76). Then Construction is in, complete Games and Rec, and swap into Colonization to build settlers, and just try and bulldoze through Defensive Tactics.

I could have gone Drama and Poetry, but then I would need to build a wonder (likely Hanging Gardens) in MH and it throws everything off. Was considering Autocracy and Corvee to try and 7 turn it but I would need to build hte Campus at Long, and that takes me away from the settler builds I need.







TAD sent the DoF, I've accepted now. Trading Spice for Salt (to his advantage for a few turns but I will have Salt mined T72 and he knows what I was planning by retreating his warrior. That will make MH Ecstatic.





I've thought this through and Ancestral Hall, whilst helpful from a production perspective, doesn't help me play the game I need: Tight and focused on being ready to take part in a Greenline dog pile. I have bad fresh water locations and poor housing, this gives me a way to get cities to size 10 which is what I truly need, and the amenities for at least Happy growth modifiers, and possibly ecstatic.

The AC guv promo gives me Pingala in MH, and then the DT title gives him the beaker or culture boost. After the AC goes down, Pingala should keep MH at Ecstatic until size 10 (after the 5 turn installation period). I will likely Lilja growth the rest of the way, it's essentially a wonder v. immense yields.




My yields are bad, but there is light. 12 era points from an Heroic Age, can get a further 1 for pantheon, 4 eurekas (Astrology - get lucky with the map, Machinery - build 1 more archer, Apprenticeship - 1 more mine after salt, Mass production - Lumber mill), 4 for great wall segment leaving just 3 remaining points to find.

[Krill]

Turn 69

Found Whosit.




In addition he has 5 cities, second city is size 6.

I'm not saying this game is over. There are lots of ways this can go, but that is a behemoth of a position. MH is still three pop and thre guv titles away from approaching the yield output, and I'm over 300 adjusted production from equaling his number of cities (and then I don't have the tiles to put districts on!)

I can't even settle 5 cities without going into tundra or desert.

Maybe next time small map with high sea level is better than tiny and low?





Settling further east would have gotten me one more city, but I think this picture highlights that it would have been a little challenging. Needs must etc.

[RefSteel]

You should play in a civ 6 game Ref. It's actually an interesting game. I'm not sure if you read the Canadian exploits in PBEM18, but there is always something to work towards, unlike Civ 4.

Sounds interesting (and no, I haven't read any of PbeM18 yet) - but I'm afraid there's no chance of my playing any MP Civ6: Even if I get access to the game, my schedule wouldn't allow me to play anything like a consistent turn a day. I'm glad to hear there's always stuff to play for though - good luck playing your way out of the behemoth-of-a-position's belly!

[Krill]

You should play in a civ 6 game Ref. It's actually an interesting game. I'm not sure if you read the Canadian exploits in PBEM18, but there is always something to work towards, unlike Civ 4.

Sounds interesting (and no, I haven't read any of PbeM18 yet) - but I'm afraid there's no chance of my playing any MP Civ6:  Even if I get access to the game, my schedule wouldn't allow me to play anything like a consistent turn a day.  I'm glad to hear there's always stuff to play for though - good luck playing your way out of the behemoth-of-a-position's belly!

Well, if you wanted to, that pace is actually prevalent in other communities such as the PYDT community, so it should not be a barrier to playing a game. I'm coming around to the idea of playing many games, but slower. If it's possible to blitz out the first 40 turns (when there isn't that much to do and you can plan the next turns play), I think it's a practicle option. And it should always be possible to use a "Starting sub" to get that blitz, be it a ded lurker who stays a ded lurker, or even a spoiled player following specific instructions.

We really should be more inventive in the games we will.

[Krill]

tl;dr of the potential bug.

I used Lilja (faith) in Long last turn and the faith produced was not added to me total amount. Now I'm not sure if it is added one turn later, in which case fine, but if it's just been pissed into the wind I have no way to unlock a pantheon short of using God King, which I do not think is an acceptable solution.

[Krill]

Evidence of the bug (and it's a bug whichever it's phrased, it's only how difficult it is to live with which is up in the air):

T70: Lilja (faith) project is running in Long. 11 faith already stored,





T71: opening screenshot: 11 faith already stored but now stating +6 faith.

[Krill]

Honestly, this map is trash.

I think Archduke is isolated from everyone else, I'm pretty sure Chev is over to the far east so there is this absurd three way fight, and I couldn't do anything to Archduke if I wanted to so he can build into hte future (because greenline will backstab me the moment he sees an opportunity. Meanwhile he has settled in such a way that there is a single tile to plant a city on between us. It's a pretty trash city in most circumstances but I have no where else to settle, but he has camped it with a warrior. Mate, you're going to win the game and I have no real intention of doing anything but playing sim city in a corner, so stop being a jerk.

Realistically I have to play a true, solid diplo game to do anything here. Looking at a Whosit naval invasion of Archduke as the only realistic intervention. I have a few other options but nothing that I actually like the idea of. That and the map has forsaken me in so many ways: I still can't find a natural wonder and I need the eureka for Astrology to get within 6 points of a Heroic age (lumber mill, mine, 1 more archer, natural wonder).

Should have played on Small and filled out more than 5 CS.

This game is probably the complete opposite of PB71.

[Krill]

Oh, some world news for players.

Whosit is the first player to meet every player, because there are galley paths across the ocean for him to follow. Meanwhile I have three separate oceans to deal with on a pangaea map.

On that note, my pantheon came in (bug report in the tech thread). I took God of the Sea because I have something like 11 seafood tiles to claim (not counting the stuff contested with TAD). The alternatives were Stone circles (worth it to build up faith@8fpt to buy a few Feudalism builders in a heroic age if I can get there, otherwise only stores faith for a possible GMC 2 unit rush. Cheaper just to build the units rather than the GMC...), or God of Crasftsmen (2 production, faith per turn), worst of both worlds. God of Festivals is up. I have zero plantations. Chev must have taken God of the Open Sky. I just built my second pasture and have a third ring spice to plantation.

Sadly, if I had taken GotS around T30 it would have paid back the Lilja cost by now and then some, so that was probably a poor choice on my part. Still. God of the Sea being the best choice on a Pangaea map highlights to challenge here.





Lovely picture of easy coastal paths and what is an annoying inland sea (for all intents and purposes).

Chevs score has flatlined. I've stayed in touching distance of third, I'm actually keeping up-ish with TAD in civics (I'm not really, he must be sandbagging or missing inspirations), and I think I'm actually doing the same with science due to hitting every inspiration and eureka. Chev isn't. Whosit has over double Chevs score up 4 techs, more than double the Empire score, up 3 civics...when I said that there is a three way fight potentially going on, it looks like it will be an enforced greenline+Chev v. Whosit and I don't think greenline will do that, I think he will do nothing and watch Chev get eaten (because I will not give him a DoF). So the question is if Whosit will actually pull the trigger on that route to victory: Eat Chev, force DoF onto greenline, invade TAD, force concession. He had double the tech of TAD but that's changed (probably card swaps etc)

Actually, TAD might be missing inspirations as I can't see that he has built a wonder nor is he likely to have researched Construction. So actually there are likely inefficiencies there.





greenline got his (trash) GS. The next one is Aryabhata. 3 random eurekas sounds decent because by the time I would trigger him I would only have 5 techs to trigger anyway (Military Engineering is a possible one to have triggered with an aqueduct build , others are Castles as can't get to Monarchy, Military Tactics (spear kill) Buttress (Classical wonder build), IW (damned iron mine). However greenline will get there first as I will not be getting a second campus that quickly. I think he is going to want that one, and I want to see what the next GS will be. OTOH, I could build Campus project, and checkign formulae I think I could just squeck by later on with one project. And the Medieval era GS are trash in comparrison. Yeah, I'll build this into the plan.

Also, greenline is unable to hold onto Venice due to loyalty issues even with a governor present. That's a likely urgent Pingala move as I think he had a drop in science when he took Venice. he might stabilise, but he is getting hit by both Whosit and I, and with the plan to grow Log relatively quickly...this might be a long term struggle, as Venice is smaller than both neighbours with limited opportunity to grow in comparison.

I don't know how the others are doing for era points. I'm either 6 or 7 short once techs are accounted for. Add in a great wall segment and I need another 2 or three. Find Chev, get MH to size 10 via Lilja and and that is the 1+2 remaining (if worlds first size 10 city).

TAD has the option to go for a religious victory here. If Chev gets snuffed out, Whosit has to hurry up and get a religion or there is no one to oppose TAD.