[Spoilers]C6PBEM23: Krill sidles yonder, and probably fails

[The Black Sword]

In principle I don't see an issue with buying a city. It doesn't seem to be against the rules.

But if someone is on the way out and the value of the city to them is quite low then it can come dangerously close to city gifting. I don't know the current situation well enough but 175g does sound very cheap.

[Krill]

Thanks for the post TBS. Ill add some more facts and a little analysis.

Greenline has an army of warriors and archers. I think something like 8 and 3 respectively.

He has 50 iron and Apprenticeship. He has 175ish gold himself.

If he accepts the offer he has enough gold to upgrade a warrior to a 45 strength man at arms and enough gold to work towards another upgrade.

He has not lost any cities (yet). He may have another way to get a MaA out but I have not seen his iron stockpile decrease so he does not have one in a queue. He lacks the production card and a chop is about 55 production. A MaA is 160 production.

The gold offer is low in an absolute context, OTOH I only have 228 gold, and it is enough to make a material difference.

I think a relevant point is that if such an offer were accepted then I would benefit immensely, both for an extra city and also giving useful resources that would be used against a player I have a DoF with. However, so might greenline, holding his key second city and bloxking the approach to Venice. Potentially this could be an act which is a turning point against Whosits dominance in the game. It feels that if the view is the offer is "too cheap" then where is that line drawn? I feel that is the sort of distinction lurkers would struggle to make and it should only be the general validity which is debatable. The decision rests with greenline if he would accept or not.

Finally, loyalty: it is not certain how I could hold the city in the medium term, and even then Whosit could walk up to it if he breaks through quickly. Theoretically I could just be giving gold away for a city I would lose in 10 turns anyway.

[Krill]

T88

Offer not accepted but not declined :hmmm:

No walls chopped, no warrior upgraded, no iron used. Everyone went on a beeline to Apprenticeship (well, no comment on Chev) and just got there. Maybe he wants to leave the option there and then amend it to ask for more gold and iron, as he is maybe a turn or two from upgrading a warrior from his own funds, and I he wants to see what happens.

That'd be a shame. I'm buying tiles next turn (oh, on that note, turns out I can't count. Thought I needed 400 gold to buy three tiles. I only needed 300 and with LS only need 240) so it will take a good number of turns to get back up to a large amount of gold.

I'm tempted to be greedy. Buying tiles, working the extra farms, and Veterancy gives me a jump to something like 40gpt by around T96, and it quickly spirals. If and when Long reaches size 10 (and a couple of turns of Lilja quickly pays back), with the extra two harbours online it's more like 80gpt and I'm limited by resources, not gold for unit upgrades.

[Krill]

Turn 89

After the screw up with uploading the wrong save I think we're back on track.




greenline chopped a maize at Urtin Duu, which enabled a warrior to MaA upgrade (and ~90 gold left). He chopped a rain forest at Scarborough, and he has the Victor promotion of Garrison commander, and swapped into Oligarchy. I expect he is running Limes, but I do not know what else he is running. I know he has 5 gov'nor titles in play, but I only see two guvs in position, (Pingala, Victor). He probably has a triple promo Pingala, so I doubt he has Embrasure on Victor for double city attack.

His warriors are 29 strength (36 if Battlecry). The legions are strength 45 with GG, plus hill/forest defense, minus damage, but four archers should do 40 damage minimum, maybe 50. The city attack should do another 35+, so a warrior should be able to attack to finish off a legion, without bringing the MaA into play.

That means Whosit cannot surround Scarborough, so needs a quick frontal assault. That means the ram needs to on a tile the archers can't reach, once the ram is down the assault fails (I think it's failed already, unless Whosit can take the walls downm this turn). Whosit upgraded 6 warriors, there is one legion in the east, and one trailing, and a third damaged on the western edge of Scarborough.

I do not think Whosit will have that western legion on his turn. There are only two tiles the legions could be on. That's not going to be enough to take down the walls in one turn, and the trailing legion is out of position to replace a damaged legion, and there is no strategic reserve coming forward.

Now the question is what will be left? I think Whosit will lose one legion before he gets the turn back. He might lose a second. I'm not sure if greenline will lose anything now. The western legion can be killed without exposing any units to reprisals and then the legions will crash into walls and only need ~65hp worth of damage to die, which is a walls short and some archers. If anything, this justifies the opportunistic gold for city trade: I offered more gold than one maize chop would have given, so if greenline was not in position then the gold could have made a material difference. I expect this to be all over in 4 turns.





With this in mind, I'm preparing to improve my defenses. I'm using Manouvre for two turns rather than Ilkum to prep a horseman. I'm delaying the third mine until T93, which means getting IW and Engineering to 1 turn from completion and then putting excess beakers into Castles, or I can eat the increased IZ cost and just blitz through to Machinery. Mil Training done eot90, swapping into Veterancy T91, because I need to get those harbours down, the rest I can do with gold. All the feud farms complete T92, Feud should land eot96 so T97 definitely into Feudal contract. Expectation would be third archer eot98, and Machinery around T100. If I just went straight Castles I can get it once I get Feud on T97, I'm culture limited not science limited.

The next era should start T100, and I can will have the Heroic age with Monumentality/PBV/Free Inquiry dedications, so those harbours and growing Long should be everything I realistically need to manage tech and culture. This is partly relevant because Mercenaries should reduce to 390, and I would only need 156 culture to complete it, so Mercenaries should be done eot102 at the latest, very possible it's T101 or even T100 because of overflow.

I'm toying with spending 65ish gold on buying one more tile for Mullet (it's helpful for a micro perspective, and it's the better tile to mine for builder movement), otherwise I'm saving gold. I can have an easy 400 gold by T100, and Long should still reach size 10 around T105. I can emergency upgrade a warrior, and the horseman can be built without production modifiers (they are worthless for the last turn of production): Castles is a very strong option for me because with the Merc timing I could upgrade a bunch of horsemen to coursers so it gives both offensive and defensive options, but the policy cards aren't perfect: I'd have to give up veterancy to buikld the horsemen now, and thenuse limes after Feudalism landed.

There is also the option to send a DoF to greenline but I doubt he has any interest in that. It would give me the opportunity to buy some serfdom/Liang builders, and get all the lighthouses down very quickly. I'll probably do it as a test, if he accepts then fine. I can't really do anything if Whosit can't even crack the walls at Scarborough and I am still at a slight tech disadvantage.

[Krill]

Turn 90

Looks like Whosit lost a legion, but he retreated everything else.

That means there is no pressure on greenline, plus I spy a new upgraded warrior. I can't see any more chopped gold tiles, and Chev has given up 200+ gold somewhere. Maybe he did what I did and bought tiles...but his start is that slow he would have bought the tiles already if that was his plan. More realistically he gave gold to greenline, and now it might rebound in my face. I've offered a DoF because frankly, I can't deal with all this shit and I just want to sit in a corner and build.

I'm strongly considering going to Castles and not Machinery, but I do need ranged units for defence even with my terrain, OTOH this helps delay an attack if no siege tower in play.

[Krill]

Test

Edit: weird, the forum just went back in time to August 12th and would not show any newer posts more recent than that, and now it is back to normal.

[Krill]

Turn 93

Significant change in the political landscape over the past 5 turns, but that's not what I want to post about.




Whosit shouldn't be in this position. He is running his army through to Persian with another settler, spamming cities wide with no strategic depth.



The fact he can do this is because of the atrocious map generation, but whatever. He also has a hidden CS, so he had easy access to three of them without having to go through another civ. I do not know how much luck he has had this game, apart from the fact it was more than I had.

He has Suzerainity over Hong Kong, Zanzibar and is 2 envoys away from taking Preslav. Venice is gone and La Venta is the only remaining CS and that's in his back pocket. TAD could always take Preslav off the board, and Zanzibar will be challenging to keep from greenline in the present circumstance due to a giant mountain range, but HK is in the middle of no where and only available to Chev.

Also, I have the worst luck with quests: send a trade route to HK: not possible without trading posts in Scarborough Fair and in Chartreux. Might even declare to cancel it. La Venta: Build a Courser. Do able if I change entire tech plan around it. Zanzibar? Build a second encampment I don't even have a tile for, when Whosit has a good chance of locking everyone out of a GG (I will pass on Boudicca but he gets there first). Preslavs isn't that bad, I need two catapults to keep on upgrading for eureaks so why not build one.

Rule for future: use larger maps and fill it with CS, don't use smaller maps the game becomes far too swingy.

[Krill]

Turn 94




Tada, worlds smallest and most cramped empire.

With the pressure off slightly (until TAD desides to pray for an army with over 700 faith already banked), I'm focussing on tech. That means NT for the harbour multiplier card which will also double science for the next 40 turns. I'll save gold to buy the final settler for Walrus, except possibly one serfdom Liang builder buy first. I'll decide on Lilja (food) in Long after this harbour is complete, in consideration of the delay in finishing the lighthouse for another trader.

Traders will be built in MH and then sent out. Considering swapping Magnus and Pingala once Long is at size 10, so I can get 5 food trade routes to MH. It's probably worth it. Mullet is really tight on housing, so I'm looking going back to D&P and Recorded history for the guv title (Probably worth considering putting Victor into Mullet and then after placing all the fisheries at Ponytail swapping them), except the run to Medi Faires is actually not that more expensive (88+56 but need to build Campus at Long v 168 and need a fourth lighthouse at Long plus a trader). In fact I'm probably production limited at Long; I do not give a damn about any of the available cards on those civics, but it is easier to get to Exploration with the inspiration than Divine Right without it.

Feudalism has been put to one side as it will essentially complete after era change. The cost is a handful of food but the benefit should be paid back in faster growth in other cities (give a bit now, get lots more later). looking at about 1 turn slower growth in Long. At most 2. I would expect to get to Exploration before T115, the biggest issue is going back to D&P to trigger a card swap to upgrade two galleys to caravels for the inspiration.

Policy card wise Naval Infrastructure/Caravansaries/Charismatic Leader/Conscription looks to be the order of the day, but I will need to check the difference between UP and when Caravansaries becomes relevant

Tech wise I'm consider grabbing Castles (Coursers, medi walls, culture on great wall tiles) then blitzing through to through to Cartography (strength 55 boats available via upgrade) and Mass Production (production), which also puts me in spitting distance of Industrialization. For context once NT lands (T101 due to cost reduction) this bunch of cities should reach 55bpt, then Long grows to reach 65. Shipbuilding, Maths, Buttress and Mil Tactics should be done in 6 turns, then Cartography and Mass Production 6 turns each.

The IZ situation is lightly unusual. I'm probably not going to lay it out like this. I'm thinking I will chop the forest into MH after Magnus is moved to help the dam along then place the IZ from MH; that would mean the other IZ is unplacable. The aqueduct is a bit OTT but whatever. This single IZ covers all 6 cities (1 tile NW and it could also cover Close Shave but I'm really not sure I want to push that city).

The farm triangle is necessary to get Lumberjack to size 10, but not long term. The marshes will be chopped to speed along Lumberjack and Ponytail growth. Lumberjack doesn't need a guvnor thanks to freshwater (5), those farms and spice plantation (2), simply building a granary (2) and that aqueduct (2), which leaves Walrus to pick one up when possible. It will be the only city without a harbour.

I've calculated I need an easy 33 builder charges more, which means 6 Liang Serfdom workers. That's probably 1400 gold I need to spend, plus a bought settler at 640 gold. Two galley upgrades post Mercenaries should cost...around 400 gold total. I should be approaching 80gpt with Long getting to size 10, but thats a few turns in, maybe T105. That's a long time to accrue the necessary gold, hence the expectation of using a few close civic completions to get out two or three builders at a time. OTOH, if Zanzibar hangs around then I should quickly push past 100gpt by T110, likely sooner. I need to buy two second ring and one third ring tile between Ponytail and Walrus which should be another 300 gold with the policy card in place, but they will pay back in culture and gold well enough. Call it an easy 3000 gold without buying buildings. That is achievable in the next era IMO, but I will need to evaluate MH moving onto military once the traders are completed, I will need to have a standing army in position to defend against TADs finishing the GMC and deciding to clear out a route for his missionaries. The order of operations will also need to be worked out for the gold spending

OTOH, and a good reason to run for Industrialism: Frigates will obliterate anything running through the desert at me and TAD has no good coastal cities. I only need to build a single canal with MH and I will be able to shift a defensive force around quite easily. I would need a seventh city in the far southern snow and two extra canals to put the full defense in place (thank you military engineers), but it feels...reasonable for what is essentially a test game now.

[Krill]

T96

Pictures tomorrow but I think I've just really annoyed greenline.

I got my second envoy so I took suzerainity of Zanzibat. That forced peace on them and then I saw there was a Zanzibar men at arms with a captured builder. Woops.

And I no longer have OB with greenline so my GS is stuck in the middle of nowhere...but once I get ship building I can get him out. Its not actually a huge issue.

[Krill]

Turn 98

Slow day yesterday. Fridays usually are. I'm not planning on doing a T100 update, but will do a T101 update as that is when we enter the next era. I might do a T100 update about how each player has spent the classical era? Who knows. Depends how long I'm stuck trying to buy Oasis tickets.





Adding this for future reference, but I've got a plan for a potentially dreadful seventh city. I think I can get it to size 10, but it would cost me a little bit of gold, and a lot of time (realistically, it would need a factory, but it would actually be good use of blank terrain). There's a cheeky Amundsen-Scott option as well. Sometimes it's worth doing something just to see if it can be done.

MH will finish the first light house eot and start on traders. I'll need 3 so looking at somwhere between 7-10 turns depending on tile micro. I've reconsidered the districts, as Magnus will be in MH long term (for trade route food purposes), the last two promotions are still valid and I can stack the production here with all the other IZ.

Long is due to reach size 10 no later that eot104, but I might just use Lilja (food) for a turn or two after the lighthouse (due eot99) before I can get into colonization to hang build the settler for Walrus (5 turn build, save 640 gold, use that to buy something relevant with less production is a no brainer). The other option is a barracks on the route to an armoury. Each turn of Lilja will save slightly over 1 turn of growth. I'll acknowledge one mistake, the campus should have been 1SW to leave a space for a commerce hub (would have been a 5 adjacency hub as well in a good production city), as I don't have any other good options.

Ponytail is ready to buy two builders with Serfdom, but will provide the third lighthouse to keep MH in trader construction mode. I have no plans for what to do after that (will lumber mill the forest hill though, so production should be good). I might cave in and build another encampment for Zanzibar (and frankly, I will need the production options for military engineers).

Mullet is going to be stagnated at size 3 on max hammers to get as much production into the harbour as possible, and it will also be the last city to get a trader. Or I might buy the damned granary next turn just because, I dunno. I need to pick which guv'nor goes here, there are actually a couple of interesting choices. More on that later.

I realised that Lumberjack needs to build the commerce district ASAP due to Free Inquiry but also because I need two markets for Guilds. It will start sttealing high value tiles from MH to this effect, but also think I might put the chop in and give up the Magnus production bonus (it's the old question, do you put the chop production into the city that is production poor, or the city with lots of production but also has the better modifiers?) Given that MH can only produce traders for Lumberjack, there is little way to transfer the production benefit back so might just give it up. The spice should be hooked on T100.





Whosit has placed down two further cities. He essentially has unlimited space compared to everyone else. TBH I'm trying to figure out how the player placement routine worked during map generation. He stil has land for an unknown number of cities, I can see places for at least 5 more. He will be in a GA so his tech rate will remain good (he probably thinks he has the best tech rate in the game and the most techs researched. That strictly speaking true but not for long but I don't actually see how he wins here?

greenline has peaced out with Whosit now, and he has no further option for expansion except to take Zanzibar, and even that is a stretch due to the terrain. We have a DoF and I'm about to blow his tech rate out of the water, so he might plan to push me at the end but most of my idle speculation is spent wondering about the reverse option.

On a side note, Prince is far too low a difficulty for MP games. I think everyone is going to be in a GA next turn except greenline (he is will have significant challenge due to that). I reckon Emperor might not actually be a bad idea.




So...when I get into that heroic age the loyalty pressure from my cities triples. Mo Li Hua will fall to free city status, and then fall to Whosit via loyalty pressure (unless city states fall to themselves rather than free city status?) Urtin Duu will actually fall pretty close to +0 loyalty but I don't think it will lose loyalty (I am toying with the idea of Amani with Affluence in Mullet for laughs), but with the loss of Venice it might actually go slightly negative...except the guv'nor in Venice will be transferred to Urtin Duu so that plan doesn't actually work.