Always war vets game?

[SevenSpirits]

I was taking screenshot before pick for granted; anyone disagree?

Also it seems we've defaulted to the map idea I've suggested and basic settings copied from pbem39. Now is the time to speak up if you prefer something else.

Finally let's discuss options for early interaction. IMO there are two:
1) Barbs
2) Pre-placed improvements
Both provide additional incentive for players to build more than just paper military at the very start, and in the latter case for them to explore far on the map and not just defog one copy of the mirror, so they can pillage improvements in other players' territory. I would really like to have at least one of these.

I will also throw in for your consideration: starting warriors are replaced with scouts.

[SevenSpirits]

So Pacal of India makes up his turn disadvantage the first time his fast worker steps onto a forest/hill/corn two tiles away.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. That's India gaining a worker turn, not a civ-turn.

[Krill]

I'm fairly sure you aren't going to have any way to get 4hpt for that system to work.

[Serdoa]

I was taking screenshot before pick for granted; anyone disagree?

Also it seems we've defaulted to the map idea I've suggested and basic settings copied from pbem39. Now is the time to speak up if you prefer something else.

Finally let's discuss options for early interaction. IMO there are two:
1) Barbs
2) Pre-placed improvements
Both provide additional incentive for players to build more than just paper military at the very start, and in the latter case for them to explore far on the map and not just defog one copy of the mirror, so they can pillage improvements in other players' territory. I would really like to have at least one of these.

I will also throw in for your consideration: starting warriors are replaced with scouts.

Pre-placed improvements would be my choice. No barbs. And no replacement of warriors with scouts. I think if we don't mind all that much about the picks we certainly don't need to mind about some players having scouts and some having warriors.

[SevenSpirits]

I was thinking scouts are a lot worse with the preplaced improvements, since they can't pillage. Maybe I'm wrong though. Also this avoids random early warrior chokes.

[NobleHelium]

Hm, I like the all units hold idea as I think - especially on quick - each forest is a drop in the bucket. One potential drawback is it does highlight the random advantage some will get simply from being earlier in turn order.

Anyone else prefer this?

Turn handicap method
Pick from last in turn order to first, then again in the same order (don't snake back).
Each of FIN/EXP/CRE/India/Inca: Lose a turn at beginning.

I don't see why it's necessary to couple the former with the latter. Turn order advantage is really not that big especially in AW such that you need to penalize your pick order.

[novice]

I was thinking scouts are a lot worse with the preplaced improvements, since they can't pillage.

yeah I think preplaced improvements requires only scout starts or only warrior starts.

[Serdoa]

I would agree that scouts are worse than warriors for this setup. But I simply have a hard time to see the issue with this. If you believe this is too much of a handicap don't choose a scout-start. But except for Vikings I don't see a civ with a scout-start that I personally would choose over one of India, Inca, Egypt and China anyway.

On the matter of balance-changes: Do we believe that losing 1 turn* offsets the difference between FIN/EXP and CRE/IMP? I somehow doubt that, especially if we can't even enforce it. And I would really like to at least have the feeling that there is a real choice between several options. Right now, I don't see that. I believe that it is certain that the 5 first picks will be Pacal, Sury, Willem, India, Inca.

* Well, in reality it is not one turn but just one move with your scout and worker if we do have one at the start and I am not sure we have agreed on that yet, as there is no way I know to enforce a real turn delay on a player - you can't stop research or production except for anarchy which can't be done at the start as there is nothing to revolt into)

[SevenSpirits]

I don't see why it's necessary to couple the former with the latter. Turn order advantage is really not that big especially in AW such that you need to penalize your pick order.

I think turn order is quite big.

Also in this case, the quality of picks is a bit more even which makes being early in a snake not very valuable.

[novice]

Serdoa, the settler would have to hold, too.