Main magic thread discussion: Spell balancing

Death Design Goals
1) Maintain Death's wasting feel: good debuffs, undead all over the place
2) Rename some spells so it's not all Death, Death, Death! We get it, already!
3) Make global enchants available earlier
4) Dump, reduce cost or buff underused spells
5) Basic balance concerns - damage vs health, resist vs debuff power

Main magic thread discussion: Spell balancing

Chaos Design Goals
1) Make global enchants available earlier
2) Make spells more exciting than "Oh look, another damage spell."
3) Dump, reduce cost or buff underused spells
4) Maintain Chaos's aggressive feel: good on attack, poor on defense
5) Basic balance concerns - damage vs health, resist vs debuff power

[not any more off-topic than the LoL thread, right? ]

What's the variant version of shopping? Well, maybe shoplifting. But the more legal variant version of shopping might be extreme deal searching via shopping micromanagement. And a week from tomorrow (in the US) is the most micro-intensive day of all.

Yes, I know consumerism isn't the meaning of Christmas, be thankful for what we have, etc. I don't shop on Black Friday for shopping's sake. Instead I focus on things that I've either needed for some time and deliberately waited on to save some cash, gifts I'd be buying anyway but do so for less, and buying items on behalf of others as a favor.

Since sites like http://bfads.net/ have all of the sale advertisements listed in advance, I wondered if anyone wanted to share any insights about particular Black Friday, pre-Black Friday, or Cyber Monday offers.

I'll start with two things I have personal experience with.

*Target has this 40" TV as a Black Friday doorbuster...



...my TV is a Westinghouse though an older model in a different size, and while 1080p on a 40" set is of debatable value it's still a great price on a 40" set, particularly when it's not from a house brand of the retailer. Bonus - my Westinghouse at least works very well as a PC monitor. IMHO this is the best advertised deal at any store, unless Walmart or BestBuy surprises with a late-advertised bonus doorbuster list.

*Amazon will have these speakers (http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Z-2300-TH...999&sr=8-1) on sale at $89.99 online on Black Friday. These are the same speakers I bought for my first hand-built PC 6 years ago, and they're FANTASTIC. No one is going to confuse them for high-end bookshelf speakers and a sub from a real speaker manufacturer, but for under $100 they're amazing. They also take 2 minutes to set up. Note that Logitech has a replacement set of 2.1's out this year that's actually inferior to the Z-2300s.

Again, a list of expected hits dished out by normal units, only for magic weapons and veteran units (I believe it's the same for regulars) rather than adamantium and elite.
Same format as before: numbers in parentheses denote magical weapons from the Alchemy pick for races unable to make their own, P stands for poison attacks, and paladins' numbers include their holiness bonus. Not all numbers are directly comparable - armour piercing halves effectiveness of the victim's defense, thrown/breath+melee lets them defend twice.



Melee:

BA Berserkers: 28.8
DW Hammerhands: 21.6
VA Pikemen: 19.2
BE Minotaurs: 15.6
DR Halberdiers: 15.6
HE Halberdiers: 15
BA Swordsman: 14.4
BE Halberdiers: 14.4
HE Elven Lords: 14.4
DR Swordsmen: 13.2
BA Spearman: 12.8
HM Paladins: 12.8
GN Halberdiers: 12.6 (16.8)
VA Halberdiers: 12
BE Swordsmen: 12
DE Nightblades: 12+6P
HE Swordsmen: 12
HF Swordsmen: 12
BA Cavalry: 11.2
DR Spearman: 11.2
GN Swordsmen: 10.8 (14.4)
TR War Trolls: 10.8 (14.4)
HE Cavalry: 10
VA Swordsmen: 9.6
BE Spearmen: 9.6
GN Spearmen: 9.6 (12.8)
GN Wolf Riders: 9.6
KL Halberdiers: 9 (12)
LZ Javelineers: 9 (12)
TR Halberdiers: 8.4 (11.2)
VA Cavalry 8
BE Priest: 8
HE Spearmen: 8
HF Spearmen: 8
HF Slingers: 8
NO Horsebowmen: 8
NO Rangers: 8
NO Griffins: 8
BE Bowmen: 7.2
BE Engineers: 7.2
DE Nightmares: 7.2
GN Bowmen: 7.2 (9.6)
KL Swordsmen: 7.2 (9.6)
TR Swordsmen: 7.2 (9.6)
TR War Mammoths: 6.6 (8.8)
VA Spearmen: 6.4
VA Priests: 6.4
BE Centaurs: 6.4
KL Stag Beetle: 6.4 (8.2)
HE Longbowmen: 6
HE Pegasi: 6
HF Bowmen: 6
TR Shaman: 6 (8)
DW Golem 5.2
LZ Dragon Turtle: 5.1 (6.2)
VA Bowman: 4.8
VA Shaman: 4.8
VA Engineers: 4.8
BE Magicians: 4.8
BE Manticores: 4.8+12P
HM Magicians: 4.8
KL Spearmen: 4.8 (6.4)
OC Wyvern Rider: 4.8+12P
TR Spearmen: 4.8 (6.4)
HE Magicians: 4
HF Shaman: 4
DE Warlocks: 3.2
DR Airship: 2.4



Damage dealt before regular melee - first strike, thrown and breath:

HE Elven Lords: 14.4
HM Paladins: 12.8
BA Cavalry: 11.2
HE Cavalry: 10
BA Berserkers: 9.6
VA Cavalry: 8
NO Griffins: 8
TR War Mammoths: 6.6 (8.8)
BA Spearman: 6.4
BA Swordsman: 4.8
DR Spearman: 4.8
DR Doom Drakes: 4.2
DR Swordsman: 3.6
DR Halberdier: 3.6
DR Bowmen: 3.6
KL Stag Beelte: 1.8
LZ Dragon Turtle: 1.8



And again, ranged attacks with spread given from maximum to point blank range. Grouped by the former.

HM Magicians: 10.8
DE Warlocks: 9.6
HE Magicians: 9.6
DE Priests: 8.4
HE Longbowmen: 7.2-12
HF Slingers: 7.2-12
VA Magicians: 7.2
VA Priests: 6
DE Spearmen: 4.8
HF Shaman: 4.8
HF Bowmen: 3.6-6
VA Shaman: 3.6
DE Swordsmen: 3.6
DE Halberdiers: 3.6
DE Nightmares: 3.6
NO Rangers: 3.2-6.4
VA Catapult: 3-4
DW Steam Cannon: 2.6-5.2
LZ Javelineers: 2.4-7.2 (4.8-9.6)
VA Bowman: 2.4-4.8
BE Centaurs: 2.4-4.8
NO Horsebowmen: 2.4-4.8
HE Pegasi: 2.4-4
DE Cavalry: 2.4
DR Airship: 2.2-4.4



No real surprises here, maybe apart from how poorly high-end units of races without alchemists guilds do even under favourable circumstances. Any comments welcome.

First, many thanks to I Like Serena; the combat calculator really made this a lot less tedious.



Here a comparison of the expected number of hits Elite units with Adamantium weapons (if elegible) will score an attack. The usual race abbreviations, with VA for 'Vanilla', referring to races without relevant bonuses but able to build Alchemist's Guilds.

Paladins' hits include the holy bonus, P indicates a poison attack. For races unable to build Alchemist's Guilds, the figure in brackets gives the value for magic weapons (Alchemy trait).
Note that not all entries are directly comparable: Nomad Pikemen and Barbarian Swordsmen may both expect to score 36 hits, but the former halve the victim's defense while the latter allows it to defend twice (once aginst the thrown weapons, once against regular melee).

Now the total expected melee hits:

BA Berserkers: 54
BA Spearmen: 40
VA Pikemen: 36
BA Swordsmen: 36
DW Hammerhands: 36
DR Halberdiers: 31.2
DR Spearmen: 29.6
HE Halberdiers: 28.8
HF Swordsmen: 28.8
DR Swordsmen: 28.2
BA Cavalry: 26
HE Swordsmen: 25.2
HE Elven Lords: 25.2
DE Nightblades: 24+6P
VA Halberdiers: 24
HE Spearmen: 24
HF Spearmen: 24
HF Slingers: 24
BE Minotaurs: 22.4
HM Paladins: 22
VA Swordsmen: 21
VA Spearmen: 20
GN Halberdier: 19.2 (24)
HE Cavalry: 19.2
DR Doom Drakes: 18.4
HE Longbowmen: 18
HF Bowmen: 18
GN Swordsmen: 16.8 (21)
VA Cavalry: 16
GN Spearmen: 16 (20)
NO Horsebowmen: 16
TR War Trolls: 16 (20)
VA Bowmen: 15
VA Engineers: 15
HM Magicians: 15
GN Wolf Riders: 14.4 (18)
KL Halberdiers: 14.4 (18)
LZ Javelineers: 14.4 (18)
VA Priests: 14
BE Centaurs: 14
NO Griffins: 13
TR Halberdiers: 12.8 (16)
VA Shaman: 12
DE Nightmares: 12
GN Bowmen: 12 (15)
KL Swordsmen: 12 (15)
HE Magicians: 12
HF Shaman: 12
TR Swordsmen: 11.2 (14)
HE Pegasi: 10.8
VA Magicians: 10
DE Warlocks: 10
KL Spearmen: 9.6 (12)
TR Shaman: 9.6 (12)
TR War Mammoth: 9.6 (12)
KL Stag Beetle: 9.6 (11.3)
BE Manticores: 9+12P
OC Wyvern Riders: 9+12P
DW Golem: 8
TR Spearmen: 8 (10)
LZ Dragon Turtle: 7.6 (8.8)
KL Engineers: 7.2 (9)
LZ Shaman: 6.4 (8)
DR Airship: 4.5
DW Steam Cannon: 2
VA Catapults: 0.8



In case you hope to finish something off without taking damage in return, here the expected damage certain units deal before melee:

BA Cavalry: 26
HE Elven Lords: 25.2
BA Berserkers: 21
BA Spearmen: 20
HE Cavalry: 19.2
VA Cavalry: 16
BA Swordsmen: 15
NO Griffins: 13
TR War Mammoths: 9.6 (12)
DR Spearmen: 9.6
DR Swordsmen: 7.2
DR Halberdiers: 7.2
DR Doom Drakes: 6.4
KL Stag Beetle: 2.8
LZ Dragon Turtle: 2.8



And, last not least, the entries for ranged weapons. A single entry implies a magical attack, a spread gives the figures for the maximum long-range penalty and point-blank range. Grouped by long-range performance.

HF Slingers: 19.2-28.8
HE Longbowmen: 16.8-25.2
HM Magicians: 16.8
DE Warlocks: 14.4
DE Priests: 12.8
HF Bowmen: 12-18
VA Magicians: 11.2
VA Priests: 9.6
DE Spearmen: 9.6
VA Bowmen: 9-15
NO Rangers: 8.4-14
HF Shaman: 8
BE Centaurs: 7.2-12
NO Horsebowmen: 7.2-12
DE Swordsmen: 7.2
DE Halberdiers: 7.2
VA Shaman: 6.4
LZ Javelineers: 6-12 (9-15)
HE Pegasi: 5.6-8.4
DE Nightmares: 5.6
DW Steam Cannon: 4.8-8
DE Cavalry: 4.8
DR Airship: 4.2-7
GN Bowmen: 3.6-7.2 (5.4-9)
VA CAtapults: 3.6-4.8



I made this mostly to determine how to make the best use of enchantments or rare resources, and find out how well multi-figure low-end units keep up - being able to split one adamantium resource between 3-4 cities and still get 1 unit per turn from each looks like it could be more attractive than building one city up totally to get a high-end unit each turn.

I was aware that Barbarian Spearmen would be way up there and that a lack of an Alchemist's guild would be crippling... but I am rather impressed with the humble Bowman and Halflings' melee damage output (even better if you consider their defense - lucky increases the value of every shield as well) and surprised at the slightly lacklustre output of most horse units.



Comments, corrections and discussions are extremely welcome. If there's any interest, I can also post a list for Regular/Veteran level... and might throw together one for summoned units.

Okay, I played my first three insecticide games and compared the lessons learned to the former version which I played for more than a decade. Some points may adress issues that kyrub hasn't adjusted (yet).

- AI behavior / diplomacy
Not sure how much/what was really changed. On impossible AI is still reluctant to enter pacts which is okay. Spell exchange seems unchanged. What really annoyed me was the AI aggressiveness. A manical Rjak acted the same way as a lawful Freya: They attacked my fortress and settlements without reason (hadn't provoked them before). Testing the defenses of an outpost is tolerable, but attacking the other's fortress at neutral relationship spoils the game for me. Maybe wanted to spice up the game, but I don't like it. Additionally, AI still runs AI-AI pacts and alliances at will no matter the alignment or choice of spell books. There must be a way to tech and turtle to a certain degree as I assume most of the players appreciate this strategy.

- rampaging monsters / neutral raiders
After activating both options I conclude that monsters are on average too weak and raiders much too strong. A stack of two fire elementals and a pack of hellhounds was the strongest rampage I faced, on the other hand six wolfriders decided to pay a visit to my fortress early in the game and I saw no way of winning this battle without a 11-books start. I know I could uncheck a certain box, but I'd like to play maximum stage of extension.

- neutral raiders raid players only
Has been a major bug in the original game IMO and I am not sure whether it has changed. It was ridiculous to see (had scouts nearby) strong raiders passing by several weakly defended AI settlements and headed over the whole continent to terrorize my settlements. Especially combined with superstrong raider stacks.

- AI stack building
Seems to be improved. The AI combined range and melee units and often used 4+ units.

- AI with smart choice of starting race
May be a coincidence but no AI wizard started with a weak race. Usually, Klackons were very common...

-AI holding nothing back
Saw Jafar summoning Nagas, Rjak sending his Shadow Daemons out, etc. which really pleased me.

- Sites/Nodes
I had to get used to the new distribution of monsters/guardians. BUT: Don't like the one hellhounds or Ghouls lairs or extremely weak nodes (even on impossible/strong magic) which seemed to spread like plague. Special request: Would it be possible to include a button which defines the strength of the site monsters (comparable to the node button)?

@ Kyrub
Again, overall a great job so far, I am really looking forward to further improvements!

Today someone with the username "snowlee" spammed an advertisement post in something like 40 different threads. Fortunately we were able to ban the account in quick order, and then delete all of the posts. Everything should be back to normal now. Thanks to those of you who reported the situation ASAP so that we could jump on it quickly.

Here's the main game page.

This is something I'm interested in a lot of help with, as it's a lot of work rebalancing all summoned units to match the new normal and racial units. If anyone is interested, please step up.

How would you like to see summoned units change, and what do you perceive as their current flaws? I'm interested in removing the police ability for normal units, which would indirectly boost summoned units. I'm also interested in creating more variety in casting and upkeep costs, so some units become better suited for cannon fodder duty and others become better long-term investments.

Updating this thread to include general terrain changes rather than just movement.

1) Pathfinding costing 1 MP per move
2) Setting mountaineer movement cost on plains to 1
3) Roughly doubling movement of all units (as listed elsewhere)
4) Coal: 10% discount on buildings.
5) Iron: 10% discount on troops.
6) Gems: +40% income
7) 1 food for shore tiles
8) ½ food for ocean tiles
9) ½ MP for shore tiles for swimmers
Please comment, and submit any ideas you may have.