Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[darrelljs]

I don't know about Europe, but in the U.S. the vast majority of immigrants without education or marketable skills have no trouble finding jobs, the entire reason they come over being to find work. If they can't, they usually go back because life is hard here without a job.

https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2013/foreign-born/ is a pretty good site, it doesn't break up foreign born workers between documented and undocumented but is still really interesting data.

Darrell

[Bacchus]

BLS relies on fairly thin and voluntary survey data, as well as one person per "household" giving information. I don't know the specifics of how low-qualified migrants reside in the US, but in Europe it tends to be in hostel-like blocks. The people who keep and run these blocks would normally refuse to give information, and not have access to it anyway -- how do they know whether tenants are employed?

But US is also different due to lack of "labour protection", which normally means that a person can just turn up, work some hours and get money. In Europe, hiring can be far more inflexible.

[AdrienIer]

Europe is ahead of the US in terms of automation of low skill jobs. Which means that low skilled immigrants are less desirable than in the US. Nevertheless they can be a worthwhile investment for countries like Germany and Hungary who don't have a surplus of workers

[Commodore]

Europe is ahead of the US in terms of automation of low skill jobs. Which means that low skilled immigrants are less desirable than in the US. Nevertheless they can be a worthwhile investment for countries like Germany and Hungary who don't have a surplus of workers

Who is "Germany" or "Hungary"? I feel like you're talking about Civs here. Higher population definitely increases your score, I suppose. But I'd say it's been proven to be worse for launching to Alpha Centauri. And Germans the people seem to have different preferences than Hungarians.

"More people here buying toilet paper increases our GNP!" Oddly enough, that argument is a tough sell. So much so that you actually see "accept this migration good and hard, you racist" as a preferred line.

[AdrienIer]

The most developed countries on the planet have both high density areas and diversity in its population. Refugees bring both. It's not a question of score or anything. It's a question of tackling your problems. For Germany and Hungary their problem today is a declining population. Germany has started working on a temporary solution with migration. Hungary keeps pretending that its problem is that there are too many foreigners, and that "Hungarian identity" is under attack.

[darrelljs]

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/0...ej4IFuPIY0

[Commodore]

The most developed countries on the planet have both high density areas and diversity in its population. Refugees bring both. It's not a question of score or anything. It's a question of tackling your problems. For Germany and Hungary their problem today is a declining population. Germany has started working on a temporary solution with migration. Hungary keeps pretending that its problem is that there are too many foreigners, and that "Hungarian identity" is under attack.

Yeah, that's a very weird worldview. The states might have a problem of declining population (highly debatable assertion warning, but moving along), but the in the people that declining population is just a symptom. And a state can facilitate whatever movement of peoplesit wants, but Germans and Hungarians are dying off either way. Which, as Nicolae gleefully shows, is part of how history works. 

Government is theoretically something that exists for it's shareholders, not for it's shares. Which is admittedly a critique of the theory, because in actual fact government exists for government's sake.

It is a true thing under heaven, that what is long divided unites and that what is long united divides. The world is celebrating diversity, and this is a time of division. Empires fracture into nations and nations combine into empires. Are you going to bet on the EU, the US, and other gasping late-stage empires going forward?

[SadGit]

I don't know about Europe, but in the U.S. the vast majority of immigrants without education or marketable skills have no trouble finding jobs, the entire reason they come over being to find work.  If they can't, they usually go back because life is hard here without a job.

Darrell

Depends on which parts of Europe. In Denmark and the other northern wellfare states they tend to stay and collect. Since EU says we cant diferentiate between locals and EU immigrants regarding benefits and all others are either kept as refugees or illegal immigrants who cant be deported they all end up on public benefits. The norther wellfare states are run on the concept that serving others is degrading so all the no-skill jobs were fased out. Housecleaning is degrading, its better to be on benefits. Gardening is degrading, its better on benefits. Building is unionised so no unskilled albour allowed and very high minimum wages -> doctors doing DIY in the weekends instead of working extra shifts.

minimum income tax starts at around 44% with the first 4K euros taxfree. There is a 25% VAT on all goods AND services. Minimum wages around 15 euros (cashier part time). So a guy painting your living room will charge around 65 euros per hour. I make around 25 euros per hour as a librarian, guess how often I pay for house improvements (most plumbing and electric work must be done by skilled labour says the laws created by union funded social democrats).

Where in this scheme does an unskilled immigrant with 5-7 years of school, speaking at best a pidgin english fit in? How do you convince him to work when the benefits are so much higher than minimum wage work.

And why should focus on not offending the French in regards to what thought are acceptable? We believed that care should be given and allovences made for 1st generation immigrants. Chaotic background/refugee/low education: a bit higher crime and unemployment but they will soon get the hang of it/live like happy Danes. 2nd generation even higher crime rates and unemployment, dropping out of school as analfabets, meh their parentes had a hard life, perhaps the upbringing was rough, oh and racism ofc. 3rd generation even higher still crime rates and unemployment, leaving school barely functioning?  I dont know what to say, we sure as hell havent found a way to tap into that surplus workforce I hear about. And we even have council emplyees making wakeup calls to ensure the kids go to school.

[AdrienIer]

And why should focus on not offending the French in regards to what thought are acceptable?

Not sure what that part is supposed to mean ???

[Krill]

Basically it means that what you think means fuck all. I could write that in more flowery and technical language, but that's the gist of it.