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  Gavagai, ChatGPT and the end of civilization
Posted by: Gavagai - June 1st, 2024, 01:08 - Forum: Pitboss 78 - Replies (33)

The picture to set the tone for the thread. Not quite GPT but his younger brother.
[Image: embed?resid=2C3E4D99C4716F1F%2136685&aut...height=600]
Now, I hope Scooter will show me something just as impressive.

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  [PB78 SPOILERS] GT and Magic Science in the Post-Apocalyptic Wasteland
Posted by: Magic Science - May 31st, 2024, 19:41 - Forum: Pitboss 78 - Replies (112)

   
Barbarian charity?


   
Melancholy charity.

...

Unfortunately, I was playing a lot of Rain World when I should have been pondering how best to CRUSH THE ENEMY in Pitboss 74. The game is just too good for my own good. It is very good. Rain World would perhaps even be the best game ever if not for Civ IV itself, hallowed be its name.
Fortunately, anyway, Rain World might have actually prepared me for this unique post-apocalyptic pitboss.

Rain World takes place in a post-apocalyptic wasteland of twisted terrain, which I scouted and learned to traverse and survive in.
Rain World includes many horrific and insane barbarians, such as All Vultures, Some Scavengers, White Lizards, and Dropwigs, which I learned to KILL AS THEY SO RICHLY DESERVE. rant.
Now, Rain World is not so strong on the whole "relearning what was forgotten and rebuilding civilization from the mud" part, as it is instead about The Void. However, in some campaigns the Local Group is slightly more civilized at the end than the beginning, I guess. Maybe. Technically. Except for the exceptions...

Please give me the screenshot of first noodling. And don't read beyond if you should not read beyond.

P.S. WELCOME VALUED TEAMMATES. Sincerely. This will be a lot of fun. smile.

EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT:  crazyeye.

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  [SPOILERS] Lurkers Rooting for More Destruction
Posted by: scooter - May 31st, 2024, 14:35 - Forum: Pitboss 78 - Replies (115)

[Image: the-end-is-near.jpg?]


I'll have some thoughts on the setup later.

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  PB78-Superdeath and Nauf beat the field
Posted by: superdeath - May 30th, 2024, 22:33 - Forum: Pitboss 78 - Replies (96)

Thread starter

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  [PB78] Dreylin boldly goes
Posted by: Dreylin - May 30th, 2024, 22:06 - Forum: Pitboss 78 - Replies (343)

Maybe a Star Trek theme?


Easy reference location:

Gavagai - Bismark (EXP, IND) of India (Fast Worker, Jail)
Superdeath - Kublai Khan (AGG, CRE) of Sumeria (Vulture, Ziggurat)
Thrawn - Boudica (AGG, CHA) of Native America (Dog Soldier, Totem Pole)
Magic Science - Louis XIV (CRE, IND) of Persia (Immortal, Bazaar)
Dreylin - Saladin (SPI, PRO) of Inca (Quechua, Terrace)


Password:

federation

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  [PB78] Underdogs and undercats: The Mrrshan warlords visit the world of Civ IV
Posted by: thrawn - May 30th, 2024, 21:04 - Forum: Pitboss 78 - Replies (462)

-

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  Shilling for RFC: Dawn of Civilization mod for Civ 4
Posted by: greenline - May 30th, 2024, 20:18 - Forum: Civilization General Discussion - Replies (71)

RFC: Dawn of Civilization is a mod of a mod that dramatically extends the originally RFC mod for Civ 4. The RFC mod attempted to simulate all of known history on a large earth map. I'm posting here because a big update for Dawn of Civilization just came out, a complete overhaul of the map that's produced the biggest and most detailed earth map ever used by a Civ game, hosting a bunch of unique historical civs with unique abilities and victory conditions. Check it out! https://github.com/dguenms/Dawn-of-Civil...ee/develop .

Note that the installer provided on the github page doesn't work for the new version. To get it working, just download the develop branch as a zip file, and extract it in your mod folder for Civ 4.

If anyone wants a rundown of what playing the mod is like, I'd be willing to do a runthrough of a sample single player game once I have a chance to get a feel for the new map, myself.

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  5 Player Themed Pitboss: Signup Thread
Posted by: scooter - May 24th, 2024, 19:06 - Forum: Pitboss 78 - Replies (353)

I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.


The earth is a withering shell of its past. All civilization on earth has been razed to the ground in an apocalyptic conflict long lost to history. Technology is long forgotten. Roving bands of raiders rule what's left of the world. Some have even made rudimentary barbaric outposts of their own to horde natural resources. All over the earth there are signs of what used to be a civilized society, but many doubt they were ever home to anything at all. Amongst the desolate world, five brave tribes have decided to try to rebuild and relearn what was forgotten. Will they succeed, or will they simply repeat the past?


-----------------


This is a 5 player Pitboss signup thread for what I hope will be a fun game. I'm not going to say a ton about the game beyond the general theme hinted at above. However, I should clarify that a signup is expecting there may be some unfairness here. There have been real attempts at map balance here, but there are map quirks that will likely result in more variance than normal. I think the risk of variance is worth what I think/hope will be a fun map to explore and play.


Here are some map/settings details that help you know what you're signing up for.


* Barbarians: Raging

* Tribal Villages: Technically disabled

* Difficulty: Monarch

* Map Size: Small

* I recommend good scouting.

* No Spies. This includes no scouting with Great Spies - keep them in your cultural borders!

* Close to Home: I'm assuming this. It's not strictly necessary though, so if players would prefer something else, I might tweak a minor rule or two

This game also comes with some unique rules! Here those are.


1) No pillaging tiles in neutral territory allowed.


2) After leaders/civs are selected and locked in, you are allowed to select a third starting technology. It must be one of the normal starting technologies. This should be done privately (PM to me or in-thread) so as not to reveal this info directly to other players.


3) The following civs are banned: Vikings, America, Rome, China, and Byzantium. The Imperialistic trait is also banned. I will likely not elaborate. smile


4) Your capitals will be placed for you on T0 rather than starting with a settler.


Finally, I'll leave a few options up to the players:


1) Despite being an events disliker, I would loosely suggest playing with them on, maybe even doubled. I think thematically it fits the game. However, this is totally optional and can be left to a vote.


2) Picking method can also be left to players. I would loosely suggest a draft because it makes it easy to compensate for turn order given sequential, however a random block of options + rerolls fits this game well, so I think this can be left to players. A blind pick ranked choice with ties going off turn order could be a good option here too.

3) I assume this is a Sequential Pitboss given that it's 5 players, but if folks prefer Simultaneous it really does not matter.


There's no huge rush on filling and launching this game, but some have asked me about it, and there are indications that we may be in the late stages of a couple games, so I figured this is a good time to launch a signup thread and see where we get.

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  Breakout of fleet design discussion
Posted by: rgp151 - May 24th, 2024, 06:34 - Forum: Master of Orion - Replies (14)

Breaking this out so as to stop interrupting your Succession game thread. :D

RefSteel said:

Quote:For me, it's a slightly subtler distinction: My rule isn't to artificially handicap my ship designs, but to assume (or say pretend) that the AI is smarter than it is when I'm making my ship designs: If I want a huge gunship, I'll design it the way I like, with banks and banks of beams. If I know the AI is suicidally obsessed with stopping bombers, I could also throw a few random bombs onto my gunship, hoping to bait the AI into uselessly shooting at the dreadnought's ARS instead of at the swarms of fighters that are my real ship-to-ship offense and actually vulnerable to attrition. I don't do that because I'm assuming/pretending the AI will attack my vulnerable ships even if I know it won't. And if I want a huge gunship that will also be able to sit on a planet while transports fly in from far away, blowing up missile bases as they get rebuilt, I'll put some bombs on it (or rather, if someone else in an SG has already built one like that, I'll use it) even if I'm worried the AI might be able to slag it or force it to retreat: I'll just reserve it for fights that I expect it to survive, or retreat it when necessary, and plan around the possibility that they will go after it, and make sure I have enough force of other kinds to win in case they do.

Also, when on defense, I wouldn't necessarily go after the bombers first. In RotP, as I understand it at least, it's possible to defend a planet from dedicated bombers in incredibly cheesy but effective ways as long as you can take out their space superiority ships and survive whatever space-to-space weapons their bombers carry. You don't even need Repulsors or Dissipators - just enough different designs in the same battle - though I don't know if even the Xilmi AI uses tactics as ridiculous as this.

Even without that though, if I'm not going to be able to stop their bombers from doing ~the worst they can do (destroying all the bases? wiping out the whole colony from the combat screen, especially with spores?) then I probably wouldn't target them until I've beaten their space superiority fleet. Then if the bombers don't retreat for whatever reason, my spacefleet can burn them down, and if they do, they're still taken out of action while they're forced to retreat to a friendly colony - where I may be able to chase them again if I can hit it with a winning fleet. Of course, that's just theorycrafting. If I think I can save a colony (or substantial parts of its value) by hitting the bombers first (and still win the space battle so it isn't wasted effort) that I couldn't without, I probably would - but I'd hope it's a much more complicated decision than just "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa kill the bombers kill them!!!!!" if I'm (or if any player or AI is) playing the battle well!

Just to be clear on what I'm seeing in RotP, since I think maybe there are some misunderstandings here. Firstly, I'm talking about what's most effective, not about intentionally being less effective in order to give the AI a better chance or whatever. 

What I've found is that using a medium or large ship design with maximum defensive attributes, assuming you have reasonable technology, will generally yield ships that take zero or almost zero damage from enemy attacks, both missiles and beams. For this I'll use a couple of examples below that I just sort of randomly picked from some old saved games at a mid point in tech level:

First the bomber: 
   

Then a gunship:
   

These are from a game vs Xilmi where I needed as much help as I could get. Yes, you can see there is a lot of available space, that's just because I happened to load a save where these were becoming obsolete and were about to be replaced, but they filled their space when initially designed.

You can see that the Bomber is a Large design with Internal Stabilizers. It has a beam defense of 7 and an missile defense of 10. I don't recall all the details of this game as this was from a while back, but generally such designs, when at appropriate tech levels, will be able to go into a fight without losing any, or very few, ships while drawing all of the fire. Since the ship only needs to carry bombs, the fact loading up with maximum defenses leaves little room for weapons isn't a huge drawback because bombs don't require much room. Honestly, since I'm only using Internal Stabilizers here I could have just used Medium bombers most likely. Typically I'll switch to Large when I add on Battle Scanners, Cloaking Devices and/or Teleporters, or also when ECM gets high and takes up more room. Sometimes I'll also add on Auto Repair when using Large too if I see that my bombers are taking healable damage. But whatever, Large works just fine.

For the Huge gunship you can see that the beam and missile defense are only 3 each. Even with Auto Repair this ship will take damage and can be one-shot, so Auto Repair alone isn't necessarily enough. Absolutely there are many cases where a single Huge Auto Repair can't out-heal the damage and survive. So even with a stack of several of them you will be losing at least one each turn if you take heavy fire. The options here are to try to make this ship more defensive by increasing movement and adding an Internal  Stabilizer, but that #1 takes up more room and #2 eliminates the use of other specials, or just not using a Huge design at all.

In this case I'm not using Repulsor Beams I because I didn't have them. Normally I would prefer Repulsor Beams. I don't have Battle Scanners on this ship because I needed the other specials. I was also running a Large fighter design as well, with basically a 3 ship fleet, in which case the Large fighter had the Battle Scanner. The Large fighter used Internal Stabilizer, Battle Scanner and Warp Dissipator with no shields at all.

So the Bomber has maximum shields, ECM and maneuverability. When on offense pretty much everything will target the bombers all the time. This means the Huge and Large have little need for defense as they generally aren't targeted in the first place, but the Huge has shields and armor just in case and to help it on defense. Typically, when you have Repulsors on defense you can just sit your Huge in front of the planet and prevent the planet from being bombed as long as your stack survives. 

On offense everything will target the bomber but be very ineffective, either doing no damage at all or very little. The bomber can run up and bomb out the bases while drawing fire and once its done bombing out the bases it can stick around to continue drawing fire while the fighters engage in ship to ship combat. Sometimes I'll add a few beams to the bomber as well if they are more than capable for bombing. Of course it all works even better once you have either Cloaking Devices or Teleporters.

By not putting any bombs on the gunship that prevents the gunship from being targeted. If I filled out the Huge gunship with bombs then this would cause the gunship to get targeted, perhaps over the bomber. Once it is seen as a threat to the planet then it will get prioritized. Without bombs it will be mostly left alone. I want it to be left alone, even with Auto Repair, because with defense levels of only 3 it can still get one-shot. The Huge with ECM and Internal Stabilizers would have a lot less room for weapons. So by having the bombers draw all the fire I could put more weapons and specials on the Huge so they would be more effective. 

The Large fighter was basically never targeted on offense so it ran no shields at all, but relied on beam and missile defense if needed. With Warp Dissipater and Internal Stabilizer it was able to run up and start applying speed reduction ASAP. The Large fighter didn't use heavy weapons, it relied on a mix of regular fusion beams and mass drivers.

Other than intentionally handicapping myself, there would be no reason to put bombs on my other ships, which would both #1 cause them to be targeted when on offense, requiring them to increase their defenses and reduce their offensive power and #2 take away space for ship-to-ship weapons, decreasing their power on defense. In this case I didn't have Repulsor Beams so I was relying on maneuverability. Arguably there are cases where, especially with Repulsor Beams, you may need more defensive Huge designs that can soak up more damage on defense. I don't recall the particulars of this situation.

But across many games, what I've found to be the case is that Medium and Large ships with maximum Shields, ECM and maneuverability can pretty well avoid taking damage. When you put bombs on a ship that ship will be prioritized by the enemy for destruction when on offense.  Bombs take up little room. Maximizing defense takes up a lot of space on a ship design. Making bombers with maximum defense works well because bombs take little room so you can still fit enough on to be effective while also having maximum defense. And those bombers will be almost exclusively targeted when on offense, meaning that you can let them draw all the fire and design your other ships for maximum ship-to-ship firepower, as along as you don't also put bombs on them, which would then cause them to be targeted as well. 

Maybe this is "cheesy" when playing against simple AIs or on relatively easy difficulty levels, but when maximizing the difficulty by using Xilmi/Hybrid AI or playing on Hardest you need every advantage you can get, and this is a legitimate tactic. The AI is targeting the bombers for a reason, because they are capable of destroying the planet. If the AI were to ignore the bombers and focus on the gunships, I would then in-fact bomb out the planet if against opposing forces my gunships weren't capable of defeating. And against Xilmi this is exactly what the AI does. They press you with fleets that include both heavy bombers and capable gunships. If you don't stop the bombers they will bomb out the planet, often with Death Spores. So unless you have an overwhelming fleet on defense you have to make choices between going after the bombers to save the planet while you take damage from the gunships or going after the gunships and losing the planet. The Xilmi AI will do this to you over and over again and retreat ships and re-invade the next turn if you have any chance of defending, etc. ,etc.

In classic MoO I often ended up using Huge generalist designs, that are like what you describe. In MoO I will typically end up with fleets of mostly one single Huge design that has max shields, max armor, no ECM, moderate speed, Auto Repair, Repulsor Beams about 80%-90% of the offensive space filled with beams and the rest filled with bombs. These designs could "do it all", especially at the point when Auto Repair was new and capable of out healing most of the damage, which often came largely from planetary missile bases.  

This typically worked because the AI would continue to build ships that couldn't get past Repulsor Beams, so their huge stacks of Small and Medium ships filled with Megabolt Cannons were useless. So as long as you could out-heal the planetary defenses you were good. Every now and then the AI would stumble onto a ranged ship design that was a threat, but they typically wouldn't put Repulsor Beams on it, so if they did, you could counter with your own stack of Small or Medium 1 space weapons and just run up on them and one-shot them. But generally you can have one design to rule them all, the Huge dreadnaught, capable of holding off attackers, beaming down ships and bombing out planets.

But such tactics don't typically work in RotP. Granted, when playing on lesser difficulty levels many things can be made to work, but on higher difficulty levels Repulsor Beams won't be effective at much of anything other than keeping bombers off your planet. The enemy will use lots of either missile boats or 2 space beams. They will develop stacks capable one one-shotting Huge Auto Repair designs. Repulsor Beams are still good for protecting planets, but I've had to rely a lot more on #1 maneuverability to outrun missiles #2 Warp Dissipator to increase the maneuverability advantage and #3 the use of maximum defensive ships that can draw fire paired with ships capable of dealing heavy enough damage to overcome Auto Repair and/or kill large stacks quickly. Auto Repair is still very good, but the AI is better at fielding stacks that can one-shot ships than it was in MoO, thus overcoming Auto Repair. So damage mitigation does more to increase survivability than Auto Repair does, but maximum damage mitigation doesn't leave a lot of room for offensive weapons.

Anyway, that's my 2... dollars? tongue

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  Any way to see commerce numbers for each city simultaneously?
Posted by: sunrise089 - May 24th, 2024, 00:26 - Forum: Civilization General Discussion - Replies (2)

Nothing like asking basic technical questions 20 years in...

The F1 screen shows food, hammers, gold, and beakers. But the latter two are derived from commerce. Is there any way to see commerce for each city without cycling through each city screen?

Thanks!

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